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Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
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Sd.Kfz.138/1 Geschützwagen 38 H
jimbrae
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Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
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Posted: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 04:40 AM UTC
The latest from DML has been announced in the form of DRA6470 - Sd.Kfz.138/1 Geschützwagen 38 H für s.IG.33/1, If anyone can expand my limited education regarding this vehicle it''d be much appreciated! Meanwhile images of this new release, can be seen:

Link to Item

If you have comments or questions please post them here.

Thanks!

bill_c
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Posted: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 05:25 AM UTC
The Wehrmacht was skilled at using whatever parts and pieces were at hand, and this looks like another attempt to get artillery on a more mobile basis. Clearly as the Eastern Front became a huge sinkhole for men and materiel, small tanks like the 38(t) were of less and less use as AFVs and more suitable as gun platforms.

I would love to know if there's a site or book that breaks down all the various AFVs, soft skins, and weird combos by number. In addition to the annoying "paper panzers," I see a lot of vehicles (the "Stadtgas" Stug III) that either never saw combat or were produced in ridiculously small numbers (the Porsche Tiger B - 50, count 'em 50 vehicles). While I don't fault manufacturers for maximizing their molds, I don't myself want to build a vehicle that saw limited service at best. My one exception might be that Porsche Tiger B because it has gotten so many raves as a kit.
PantherF
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Indiana, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 06:05 AM UTC
These two are very similar.

http://www.dragonusaonline.com/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=DRA6429




I think I like the Geschützwagen 38 H better, it has a larger crew compartment.
Havoc
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California, United States
Joined: October 08, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 06:19 AM UTC
Yes, I am going "off topic" here, but holy cow! I'm not much of a German armor modeler, but I have to say that I am knocked out by the artwork in Jim's posting! What an AWESOME illustration --- truly, a work of art! I don't know who the artist is, but I'd love to see more of his/her work!!!

Regards and Aloha,

Johnny B.
bizzychicken
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Wales, United Kingdom
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Posted: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 06:35 AM UTC
Both were gun platforms for the 150mm sig 33 howitzer. The 1st used the newer38 chassie with single return idler the 2nd two idlers. Sorry don't know how manny and when they when they were produced. Looks like fun to make, big interior and also Dragons razor edge I would of thought Geraint
jjumbo
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 06:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The Wehrmacht was skilled at using whatever parts and pieces were at hand, and this looks like another attempt to get artillery on a more mobile basis. Clearly as the Eastern Front became a huge sinkhole for men and materiel, small tanks like the 38(t) were of less and less use as AFVs and more suitable as gun platforms.

I would love to know if there's a site or book that breaks down all the various AFVs, soft skins, and weird combos by number. In addition to the annoying "paper panzers," I see a lot of vehicles (the "Stadtgas" Stug III) that either never saw combat or were produced in ridiculously small numbers (the Porsche Tiger B - 50, count 'em 50 vehicles). While I don't fault manufacturers for maximizing their molds, I don't myself want to build a vehicle that saw limited service at best. My one exception might be that Porsche Tiger B because it has gotten so many raves as a kit.



Hey Bill,
You hit the nail on the head when you said that the Germans produced a bunch of one offs and other weird combos.
When you consider all the equipment the Germans captured and then pressed into service, these few SP's based on the 38(t) are just a drop in the bucket.
When you include all the French, British, Russian and other AFV's captured and modified by the Germans, you begin to realize the amazing amount of industry and manpower that was diverted into converting a bewildering variety of vehicles.
I'm not sure if it's still in print but Arms and Armour's "The Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two" by Peter Chamberlain, Hilary Doyle and Thomas Jentz gives a breakdown of the number of vehicle built.
My copy was printed in 1993 and may not be totally up to date but it says that there were 90 vehicles and one prototype of this type of 15cm sIG 33 (Sf) auf Pz.Kpfw 38(t) built during February to April 1943.
The later version had 282 vehicles produced from April 1943 to June 1943 and October 1943 and September 1944 and 102 of it's Munitionspanzer ammo carrier.
Dragon and it's sister company Kirin produced the earlier version way back in 1994-95 so it's nice to see that they've revisited it.
Cheers

jjumbo
bill_c
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Posted: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 06:52 AM UTC
The new kit looks like it has some great tarp options as well.
bizzychicken
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Wales, United Kingdom
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Posted: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 07:06 AM UTC
John or Bill Do you know if the Brummbar used the same ammo as the Sig 33 Cheers Geraint
jjumbo
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Posted: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 07:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text

John or Bill Do you know if the Brummbar used the same ammo as the Sig 33 Cheers Geraint



Hey Geraint,
While the sIG 33 and the StuH 43 were different cannons, they appear to have been related .
The Wikipedia's page on the Brummbar page has a link for the StuH 43 that takes you to the sIG 33 page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brummbar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_33

It's probable that both guns used the same ammo but knowing the Germans, the rounds they used may have been different in someway.
Maybe one of the other guys on site will know
Cheers

jjumbo
dispatcher
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Illinois, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 07:57 AM UTC
I don't remember when it came out back in the early 90's but Dragon Imperial kit # 9004 is the Grille Ausf.H 138/1. It was if I remember correctly a pretty straight out of the box kit with few problems. Back then their wasn't as much after market stuff until some time after a kit was released. This new kit will help with the lack of mobile artillery in German 1/35th scale. I would think a munitions carrier will make an great addition now that the basic kit is out, just drop the gun.
Joe
cagey46
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: December 20, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 08:00 AM UTC
Hi guys. Don't know if someone's beaten me to this, but my reference says that 90 (+1 prototype) were built between February and April 1943, with other designations being V111 Serie TNHP, Gerat 805 and Grille. Hope this is of interest.
wbill76
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Texas, United States
Joined: May 02, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 09:57 AM UTC
The Grille H was a follow-on to the previously limited results experienced with mounting the SiG 33 gun on the Pzkpfw I-B chassis (commonly known as the Bison I). The 38t chassis was chosen because of higher reliability and load-carrying capacity and the request was issued at the same time as that that created the Marder III and III H SP AT platforms. The design and prototype phase began in Feb 1942 and culminated with the full production beginning in Feb 1943. The 38t hull from the engine bay back was retained while the front of the hull was modified to accomodate the SiG 33 in a revised mount and the space needed for the fighting compartment. 25 vehicles were shipped Feb-43, 40 Mar-43, 25 Apr-43 from the Ausf H production run...followed by another 27 in Apr-43 on the Ausf K run (but all still in the "H" configuration, the Ausf designation was only used for production orders to track chassis numbers). May-June-43 saw another 110 vehicles delivered at which time production was supposed to have stopped in favor of the Ausf M runs, but another 10 vehicles were finished as Ausf H configuration in 1943 that were originally supposed to be Flakpanzer 38(t)s. Total production of the Grille "H" comes to 237, a not insubstantial quantity given that the production was happening simultaneously to the orders for the Marder series in the same plants. The "H" variant was actually more numerous than the "M" variant which only had 192 produced between Nov-43 and Apr-45. (Source: Marder III & Grille by Vladimir Francev, Charles Kliment, published by MBI)

I've been hoping that DML would issue the Grille H for some time once they started down the road of the 38(t) family of vehicles...when I saw the Grille M box-art with the H in the background, I wondered if it could be imminent...and now, here it is! Definitely will be one on my "to get" list as I've had the older Kirin kit in the stash for a while but hadn't gotten around to it.
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 11:22 AM UTC
Interesting. This looks like a completely new tooled kit. I have the old Kirin kit, but boxed as Shanghai Dragon, it came complete with the Sturmartillerie Crew in Winter Uniform. I seem to remember it going together well, it was the first kit I made with seperate track links, & it's definitely an interesting vehicle. Incidentally, the Panzertruppe didn't differentiate between the marks (H & M) when recording on hand strengths. They were after all basically the same vehicle. I thought that they were named "Bison", the Grille (Cricket) series were supposed to be generic Waffentrager on a 38t style chassis that never got into production.
Not sure about the SIG33 against the StuH43. The SIG was a 1927 design that stayed in production through until 1945 according to Ian Hogg, German Artillery of WW2. He doesn't seem to mention the StuH 43, except as a projected new piece that bears no resemblance to either of the pieces mentioned, however he doesn't include Kwk (tank) weapons either, presumably because they don't fit into the "Artillery" pigeonhole (there are no references to SP weapons). The Germans made a habit of calling guns used for different purposes by different names even if basically the same piece, however there was some logic in their naming system, so I'd supect they are different weapons, even though the calibre is the same. The clue is in the nomenclature, a "gun" is not the same as a "howitzer". The implication of gun is a flat trajectory weapon whereas the howitzer is an indirect fire weapon for lobbing shells over an obstruction. Despite this the SIG33 was capable of high angle fire, so was really a howitzer in all but name.
House
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Virginia, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 11:35 AM UTC
I have been looking forward to this kit for years!
I built the old Shanghai Dragon kit years ago and the fit was "complicated". It built into a nice model and I hid some of the hundreds of sink holes under a lot of stowage. The wheels had no detail on their backs and the treads were very fragile and I finally gave up and purchased some Fruil replacements. The fighting compartment doors were NOT a fit. As long as you kept them open they were fine. Ampersand has some nice reference photos in one of their books (came out after I completed the model) Ithink Tiger Models has a very nice replacement SiG33 for this kit now.

My build is over at Track-link if you want to see the old kit.
re: http://www.track-link.net/gallery/3452

Mike
GaryKato
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Posted: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 01:13 PM UTC
I used to have the Dragon re-box of the Kirin Grille kit in my stash. It was built upon Italeri's Panzer 38(t) hull (I don't remember if the whole Italeri kit was in there). I look forward to getting this one someday.

Osprey has a modelling book covering this: "Modelling the German 15cm sIG33 Bison and Grille". The author kit bases the Kirin kit with Tamiya's Marder III hull. Another nice booklet is Zimmerit Press' "Panzerkampfwagen 38(t) Variants: 2.0cm, 3.7cm, 7.5cm, 7.62cm, 15cm (Out of Print?).

Looks like Tankograd's Militärfahrzeug 1/2009 issue has something on the Grille Ausf H also.
bizzychicken
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Wales, United Kingdom
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Posted: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 - 07:21 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Not sure about the SIG33 against the StuH43. The SIG was a 1927 design that stayed in production through until 1945 according to Ian Hogg, German Artillery of WW2. He doesn't seem to mention the StuH 43, except as a projected new piece that bears no resemblance to either of the pieces mentioned, however he doesn't include Kwk (tank) weapons either, presumably because they don't fit into the "Artillery" pigeonhole (there are no references to SP weapons). The Germans made a habit of calling guns used for different purposes by different names even if basically the same piece, however there was some logic in their naming system, so I'd supect they are different weapons, even though the calibre is the same. The clue is in the nomenclature, a "gun" is not the same as a "howitzer". The implication of gun is a flat trajectory weapon whereas the howitzer is an indirect fire weapon for lobbing shells over an obstruction. Despite this the SIG33 was capable of high angle fire, so was really a howitzer in all but name.

I have seen photos of the Stuh 43's rounds and they look similar to the SIG33's was woundering if they were. Amourscale do lovely SIG rounds and thought they would look good on the back of my early Brummbar. Cheers Geraint
jimbrae
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Posted: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 - 09:36 PM UTC
Details of the Model added...
bizzychicken
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Wales, United Kingdom
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Posted: Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 06:09 AM UTC
The detail looks great , a real kit among kits. lots of sub assemblies. Like it alot, when will it hit the shops? Hope it can become a X mas Pressie .
awrc
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Posted: Saturday, December 06, 2008 - 07:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I used to have the Dragon re-box of the Kirin Grille kit in my stash. It was built upon Italeri's Panzer 38(t) hull (I don't remember if the whole Italeri kit was in there). I look forward to getting this one someday.



I've still got this version of the kit in the stash - along with a fairly huge pile of aftermarket extras in an attempt to make a decent kit out of it. It's one of those "I'd much rather get the new kit and build that, but I've no money and I've put so much into the old one over the years..." things. Replacement Aber PE, a Tiger Model Design SiG 33 upgrade, replacement wheels, replacement tracks, replacement exhaust and a Lion Roar PE set that completely replaces the fighting compartment armor with brass.

One of those kits that when you're finished with it, there's so little left of the original kit you go "Uhhh..." when somebody asks about the manufacturer.

The Italeri Panzerjager I and both the Alan and Italeri/Maquette kits of the Bison I are about to fall into similar territory - existing kits that can be built into decent models if you throw sufficiently large amounts of aftermarket at them but that are now made completely obsolete by a Dragon kit build OOTB or with minimal extras.

Wonder how long until we get the SiG.33 parts (hopefully with a choice of both wooden and steel wheels) sold separately, maybe with appropriate figures for the horsedrawn version.

Al
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