| Subject: Modeling a Berge Panther - questions |
 | Mike High
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| Posted: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 - 09:08 AM UTC |
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Good day (night depending where you are) all. I'm in the "research" phase to model a Bergepanther/Bergepanzerwagen "Panther," Sd.Kfz.179. I have a piddly three resources ( Panzer Tracts #16, D. Doyle's German Military Vehicles, and the internet). Kit-wise, ICM makes a Bergepanther, #35342 (early?) and Italeri makes a Bergepanther, #6472 (late[er]?). Oh, and now Dragon/CH makes a Berge-Panther mit aufgesetztem Pz.Kpfw. IV Turret, #6340...a Panther with a Pz. IV turret(??)...how is that a Bergepanther??Okay...so the major differences in the kits ( VISUALLY apparent, that is) are: ICM's kit is a Panther with the turret removed and a makeshift wood cover installed to protect the crew compartment from the elements and the jib boom attached to the rear engine deck:  Italeri's kit appears to be a Bergepanther designed for the Panther with central "superstructure" protecting the winch system, et al, a spade system, a 2 cm Kw.K. 38 on the glacis, and the boom mounted to the superstructure:  Now, Dragon/CH's offering is, shall we say, different:  So, is it safe to assume that the ICM kit is an "early?" The Italeri is a much later version? The Dragon kit is...uh...OTF? DD's books clearly shows the version offered by Italeri, PT shows both, and neither shows the Dragon version. Mike  |
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 | Jim D
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| Posted: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 - 10:23 AM UTC |
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A Bergepanzer is a recovery vehicle, a bergepanther is one based on the Panther. The first was a Panther without the turret and some simple pushing and towing points. That is the ICM model you show, these were based on the Ausf D/A chassis. Later they developed one with a winch for recovery ( the Italeri model), these were based on the AusfG chassis.
The last two Bergepanthers were older versions that the 653rd Heavy Panzerjager unit modified when they received the new versions with winches. One had the turret form a Panzer IV mounted on it, the turret did not rotate. There is other that had a quad 20mm AA gun in a custom turret mounted on it. I think there is one with a simple 30 mm AA gun mounted on it. I have only seen one blurry picture of it. |
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 | Alan
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| Posted: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 - 11:58 AM UTC |
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Hi As I understand it the ICM kit is okay but has some accuracy issues as regards the Panther it uses as its base model. Off the top of my head I think it relates to the fan sizes on the engine deck and the dimensions of the roadwheels. The Italeri kit is much the same with accuracy issues and lack of or incorrect details included. The Dragon kit is something of a one off, seen in a photograph loaded on a flat bed railcar along with a Ferdinand, as mentioned already a fixed turret from a Panzer IV fixed to a Bergepanther chassis. Unsure if it continued in its recovery role or was used as a command vehicle. Several "improvement" kits have been made over the years for the Italeri kit, some are out of production, company long gone, or available if you hunt around, such as the Verlinden kit. The best version out so far is the highly detailed Tiger Model Designs based on using an accurate Dragon Panther as your base kit.  It will however set you back $150. More details from Tiger Model Designs. Page in catalogue link Hope it helps. Alan |
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 | Jan Klarbęk
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| Posted: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 - 06:56 PM UTC |
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I am currently building the ICM Bergepanther and having recently finished Dragons late G, the ICM is some what lacking in detail, sharpnes and buildability....
The details are rather soft, lacks definition and the fit is troublesome, especially on the cover over the drivers and the enginehatch which simply are way too big for the holes they are intended to fit in.
It allso lacks weldseams front and aft, and theres no interior details under the enginewents and under the turret, so leaving the hatch on the wood cover open will be troublesome.
Theres no etch for the vents.
I will build it, out of pure stuborness, but if I would do it over building the "early" converted A/D I would find a dragon panther and scratch the details for the bergeversion.
The Italieri is too short i think and has some additionel issues, but will look like a bergepanther.
Cheers/Jan |
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 | Gerald Owens
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| Posted: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 - 07:19 PM UTC |
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Quoted Text
Good day (night depending where you are) all.
I'm in the "research" phase to model a Bergepanther/Bergepanzerwagen "Panther," Sd.Kfz.179.
I have a piddly three resources (Panzer Tracts #16, D. Doyle's German Military Vehicles, and the internet).
Kit-wise, ICM makes a Bergepanther, #35342 (early?) and Italeri makes a Bergepanther, #6472 (late[er]?). Oh, and now Dragon/CH makes a Berge-Panther mit aufgesetztem Pz.Kpfw. IV Turret, #6340...a Panther with a Pz. IV turret(??)...how is that a Bergepanther??
Okay...so the major differences in the kits ( VISUALLY apparent, that is) are:
ICM's kit is a Panther with the turret removed and a makeshift wood cover installed to protect the crew compartment from the elements and the jib boom attached to the rear engine deck:
Italeri's kit appears to be a Bergepanther designed for the Panther with central "superstructure" protecting the winch system, et al, a spade system, a 2 cm Kw.K. 38 on the glacis, and the boom mounted to the superstructure:
Now, Dragon/CH's offering is, shall we say, different:
So, is it safe to assume that the ICM kit is an "early?" The Italeri is a much later version? The Dragon kit is...uh...OTF?
DD's books clearly shows the version offered by Italeri, PT shows both, and neither shows the Dragon version.
Mike
The ICM kit depicts one of the 12 Panther recovery vehicles built in June, 1943 for the Battle of Kursk. They were assigned to Panther and Ferdinand units. They were simply turretless hulls with a simple wooden cover over the turret ring. The ICM kit is not bad--due to delays caused by bankruptcy and reorganization, it had the misfortune of being released just after Dragon's state-of-the-art Ausf. D kits had hit the market, so it suffers by comparison. It has 1990's style link to link tracks with solid guide teeth, which requires a replacement or correction (Part actually offers photoetched Panther track teeth with hollow bases, for those with too much time on their hands). The circular engine deck grills are undersized. If you have a Dragon Panther A lying about, you can grab the two early spiral pattern grills from that kit (it also has a pair of the later, radial pattern grills, so no loss there). Alternatively, at least three resin makers offer the very early grills with the "complicated" edge pattern (originally, the casting incorporated the antenna base, which was later ground off). These early grills were still being used up in the spring of 1943, and were on some of the Panthers used at Kursk, and possibly the Bergepanther hulls as well (the engine deck isn't visible in the available photos). You will need to use aftermarket engine grill screens. Dragon sells their tools and tracks separately through Cyber Hobby, if you want to dress up this kit. Italeri's Bergepanther is a production model from July, 1943 and after. It has an upper hull that is eight scale inches too short, front to back, so the box for the winch is shortened to fit. Not all that noticeable. Winch detail is simplified. The four rectangular engine deck grills are poorly depicted, and do not even match each other. Less noticeable if covered with brass mesh, and additional stowed gear can further disguise this, or you can just scavenge the grills from a trashed Tamiya Panther A. The optional 20 mm cannon is poor, though you could use one from one of the Flak 38 kits out there. Wheels have overly prominent rims on the outer set, and many kits feature massive sink marks in the center of the hubcaps, making them unusable. The tracks are the usual nasty Italeri vinyl--replace them. The Cyber Hobby kit is a one-off conversion the 653rd Schwere Panzerjager Abteilung's maintenance company came up with during rotation out of the line. It's shown in Karlheinz Munch's book. Undoubtedly, Dragon will eventually offer a proper Bergepanther, but it's anyone's guess when. |
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| Rob Williams
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| Posted: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 - 11:02 PM UTC |
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I built my own Berge a year or so ago, and used the following:
Hull - DML Panther A
Interior (including the winch) - Verlinden Bergepanther
Rear spade and some of the external fittings such as the extended exhaust pipes - Italeri Bergepanther
Wooden superstructure - scratchbuilt
Crane on rear deck - Tiger Model Designs
Tracks - WW2 Productions
You should note also that if a Berge was referred to as an Ausf A or G did not necessarily mean it was on a Panther A or G hull - the nomenclature was different for the Bergepanther.
I can highly recomend the Panther series of books by Waldemar Trojca - he includes some excellent detail drawings of the various versions. One last thought - the 20mm cannon was very rarely mounted, if ever.
If I can be of any more help, please let me know.
Happy modelling
Rob |
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| Jim D
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| Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - 01:55 AM UTC |
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I have the old Italeri Bergepanther kit and will be bashing it with one of DML's A or G chassis, the Verlinden conversion, Fruil tracks, the TMD derrick, and some resin trasmission, engine, radiator stuff. I am planning to leave the 20mm gun off, but scratch the canvas rain cover.
Which makes me think that if they have a rain cover for the driver and assistant why was there nothing over the winch compartment? Knowing maintenance crews they would have made or rigged something to keep that area dry, since their personal items would have been carried there.
I don't think the crew would have had much time to use the 20mm during recovery and they sould have had some members of the stuck vehicles company/ platoon covering them and protecting the vehicle from capture. I would trust a Tiger's 88 to protect me before the 20 mm while I am dragging out the winch cable or running the winch to play out or take in the cable.
My early Beregpanther was a DML Ausf D chassis with an aftermarket conversion kit covering the turret ring, tow pintle and the derrick crane. waiting for some time to get it painted.
I had just finished a resin conversion for a Bergepanzer(P), Ferdinand/Elefant based, when DML announced they were producing it. So I have the Fruil tracks assembled for it aready. A Bergepanzer III and IV are also on the shelf along with a Bergehetzer conversion kit. |
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 | Mike Duguay
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| Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - 02:52 AM UTC |
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Quoted Text
Undoubtedly, Dragon will eventually offer a proper Bergepanther, but it's anyone's guess when.
It has to be out there in the Dragon vaults, waiting and all ready to go given all the kits they have based on the D,A and G hulls. I say let's wait for AFV or Tristar to announce one first.. Then they will release 3-4 versions all at once, Early, Late, the Early-Late, the Late-Early, the Tuesday May 6, 1944 late shift (after Hans went on break but before the thunderstorm) version... and then 6 weeks later will release all of them again as Zimmed versions..., Then 2 months after that the 'Premium editions' of all of the above will hit the shelves... The Tiger Model folks said at AMPS they are working on the G-hulled version as well. Mike |
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 | Eetu Tahvonen
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| Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - 05:31 AM UTC |
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I saw let's wait for AFV or Tristar to announce one first..
Then they will release 3-4 versions all at once, Early, Late, the Early-Late, the Late-Early, the Tuesday May 6, 1944 late shift (after Hans went on break but before the thunderstorm) version...
and then 6 weeks later will release all of them again as Zimmed versions...,
Then 2 months after that the 'Premium editions' of all of the above will hit the shelves...
I wouldn't mind seeing a round or two of releases with proper (ie. magic) tracks as well.  Sorry for the OT, but I couldn't help noticing them in the product flyer pic. |
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 | Geraint Lewis
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| Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - 06:37 AM UTC |
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Its Sad to say but building a BergPanther isn't cheap. The easy one, if you want a close looking BergPanther is going for Italiers, but be warned its not the best kit out there, lots and lots of inaccuracies. If you want to get it looking half right by the time you start sorting the wheels, tracks, whinch etc you might as well go for a Dragon hull and buy verlindens expensive Resin conversions. If you dont mind inaccuracy just build the Italier BergPanther OOTB or wait for Dragon to come out with what I would say is going to be one of the most eagerly wanted kits to hit the market. Mike Have you thought about making a Bergepanzer IV instead Trumpeter have just released a new one, which looks good. Cheers Geraint |
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| Rob Williams
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| Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - 09:12 AM UTC |
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Mike - another thought - in the Osprey book on modelling the Panther, there is a very good article on building a Bergepanther. As I recall, when I was building mine, this was the reference that I used most.
As for DML/AFV Club bringing one out, yes, I agree it's only a matter of time, particularly as (I think) Steve Zaloga has already made a master for, if I recall, Gunze Sangyo.
We can but wait. Another point to consider is that there were only a couple (2?) of Dicker Maxes, yet over 600 Bergepanthers. One would wonder why there hasn't been another kit since Italeri - aren't they sufficiently sexy?
Rob |
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| Alan
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| Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - 09:38 AM UTC |
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For inspiration here Alan |
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| Mike High
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| Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - 11:27 AM UTC |
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@ Jim - Thanks for confirming the information I was able to find in the books and on the net. @ Alan - That TMD set is stunning....and expensive. No way I can go that route... @ Jan - I appreciate the information about the ICM kit's "issues." Pretty much settles it for me; I won't get that kit. @ Gerald - Thank you for the details. Unfortunately, I have no kits on the shelf that I coud part out to fix a particular kit (ICM or Italeri). @ Rob - Always looking for good reference books. I'm not a giant fan of Panthers, but a fan of the Berges.  So, if there's a particular issue that covers the Berge, let me know. @ Jim [again] - Do you recall the AM manufacturer that made the cover for turret ring, tow pintle and the derrick crane? TMD? @ Mike -  Ain't that the truth! @ Eetu - Heheheh....I like the DS. I must be one of the odd ones out there.  @ Geraint - The Bergepanzer IV is on my want list! @ Rob [again] - I'll take a look in the LHS for that Osprey book. @ Alan [again] - Nice.....quite. @ Darren - sorry dude...PC lost all sound and vid is jacked. Can you say "full system restore?" RAID 0 is flipping failing too.  Mike |
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| Mike High
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| Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - 11:42 AM UTC |
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So.....If I were to choose to build an early Bergepanther, what would be recommended for the following: Donor kit - Panther A [early or late?] or D? Dragon's D w/zim [kit 6428]? Would an A need zimm? "Do-dads" for a berge - Jib boom/Pilzen crane...from who...kit #? Additional pintles...same. The turret ring cover - AM company? Reference - a book that shows the turret ring cover if I choose to scratch it. Other things? Thanks guys....gratly appreciated. Mike  |
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| Jim D
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| Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - 12:44 PM UTC |
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Here is my list from my "early" Bergepanther DML's 6164 Ausf D Precision Models 35.053A Bulkheads, floor, derrick, hatch and PE for handwinch Lion Roar LE35092 tow cable Tiger Model Designs (TMD) 351010 hand winch Fruilmodel ATL-08 tracks Reference book I go for the Panzertracts on Bergepanzers, covers all of them. I am not a stickler for ultra accuracy, but I want all my Panthers to be the same length, each will have a different camo pattern. The early will be straight Dunkelgelb. I did take the liberty of changing the suspension to look lighter or higher since the weight of the turret is gone.  I have seen a picture of a metal hatch cover. The crews would have like the extra protection from air bursts and the wood would rot and splinter from use. Also, they are maintenance crews they know how to cut, shape and weld metal plates. |
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| Rob Williams
wedgetail53 | Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - 07:33 PM UTC |
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Quoted Text
So.....If I were to choose to build an early Bergepanther, what would be recommended for the following:
Donor kit - Panther A [early or late?] or D? Dragon's D w/zim [kit 6428]? Would an A need zimm? Panther A - early or late, and you will need Zimmerit on the hull behind the wheels at least - check references
"Do-dads" for a berge - Jib boom/Pilzen crane...from who...kit #? Tiger Model Designs Additional pintles...same. Scratch build them. The turret ring cover - AM company? No turret rings on Bergepanther A or G
Reference - a book that shows the turret ring cover if I choose to scratch it. Waldemar Trojca - I think it's Volume 3 of his Panther series
Other things?
Thanks guys....gratly appreciated.
Mike
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| Jan Klarbęk
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| Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - 08:39 PM UTC |
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If you are going to do a early - like the ICM version, then I would say, that the bergepanther specific parts are within the "scratcheble" with evergreen tubes and strips - and with the torsion setup in the Dragon kits, adding the drive components and a firewall with a basic floor would bring you a long way for little money.
I am tempted to do it myself - as to wich version to use as a base, there others out there that can give better advice than me ...
hmmm, have we ever had a recoverycampain at Armorama ?
Cheers/Jan |
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| Mike High
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| Posted: Friday, October 09, 2009 - 03:24 AM UTC |
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Quoted Text
hmmm, have we ever had a recoverycampain at Armorama ?
Jan, check this thread: army engineering campaign proposal Mike |
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| Mike High
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| Posted: Friday, October 09, 2009 - 04:08 AM UTC |
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I'm getting much closer now. I have a couple more Panther references at my disposal. Probably the only remaining question to have a definitive answer is donor kit. I'm pretty certain I'll go with a Dragon Ausf. D. Joe, of TMD, has the pilzen I'd need, Trojca's Panther Vol. 2 has good scale drawings: FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ONLY copyright Trojca.    The scratch building that I'd need to do is the towing coupling at the rear, brackets for the pilzen, the wood cover, and the AA MG....I think. Thoughts? Mike |
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| Alan
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| Posted: Friday, October 09, 2009 - 10:45 PM UTC |
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Hi Mike I think the tow coupling is available as a resin part  It's from a company called Mori. . They say it's for a Panther A. I saw it at AFV Modeller's site in the UK. They also publish a magazine which you may be aware of. Spread over two issues they did an article on a prize winning version that also had a flak mounted onto it, based on a photograph that's been doing the rounds on the various web sites. It does show details of the hatch ring etc. the modeller fabricated. Issues 38 and 39. You can buy just the articles and download them if you wish. Article Website Alan |
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| Mike High
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| Posted: Friday, October 09, 2009 - 11:09 PM UTC |
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Alan, Fantastic. Thank you for that information! Mike |
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| Jan Klarbęk
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| Posted: Friday, October 09, 2009 - 11:30 PM UTC |
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and then you will have a surplus turret for a Panther Stellung |
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| Alan
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| Posted: Friday, October 09, 2009 - 11:36 PM UTC |
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Quoted Text
Alan,
Fantastic. Thank you for that information!
Mike
Hi Mike Glad to help. I actually have both copies of the magazine and was prompted after writing my last post to pull them out to look again. The modeller goes into quite a bit of detail inside his model of the Berge and I'm sure it would be of worthwhile assistance come conversion and detailing time. Alan |
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| Mike High
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| Posted: Friday, October 09, 2009 - 11:38 PM UTC |
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Quoted Text
and then you will have a surplus turret for a Panther Stellung
Exactly!! Mike |
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| Geraint Lewis
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| Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 04:11 AM UTC |
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Mike I was also reminded about AFV issue38 and 39. They are a must for an early Berg The modeller Staf Snyers used the CMK interior sets . I would definently down load these articles I think its called AA Recovery. Its a stunning Berg he has built. He uses a Early A with Zim. To be honest its worth getting both Mags if you can afford them because there is also another great article by Sam Dwyer about a destroyed Panther A and that also has alot of info on the guts of Panthers where he has used Verlinden transmission. Cheers Geraint |
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| Mike High
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| Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 04:12 AM UTC |
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Final round of questions? Mostly revolving around the donor kit I think. The Trojca prints I posted above appear to be based on a Panther Ausf. A. I'm led to believe this because the road wheels have the 24 bolts versus 16. I would prefer to build the version I've shown above because it has a place for the jib boom and also the towing bar. (another set of prints I have shows what I believe to be an Ausf. D [16 bolts for the road wheels], but it's nothing more than a turretless Panther with a wood cover set on top {boring?}). I may use a little "artistic license" by adding a "push beam" to one side of the cover. In looking around for a kit that would represent the prints, I've found Dragon's Panther A (Late) Premium Edition, kit #6358. If this kit would be appropriate, would zimmerit be correct? I believe so, but I'm not 100% (Rob indicates this). If zimmerit is proper, what "style?" I've seen photos of A's with what appears to be regular (vertical rows) zimm and then that style but with the diagonal "slashes" through it. I believe I've also seen a square style(?) {not waffle}. The link Alan provided for the Mori part will be utilized assuming the Dragon kit does not come with one. I'll also go through TMD for their late version of the jib. I guess my last concern is the MG mount on the front. Is there an AM manufacturer that produces at least the mount? Thanks guys. Mike p.s. Ordered the two articles. |
| 'The true Soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because He loves what is behind him.' -G. K. Chesterton | | |
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| Mike High
TacFireGuru | | Location: Colorado, United States
Member Since: December 25, 2004
Posts: 2,448 entire network,
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| Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 05:25 AM UTC |
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Ahhhh, the quote that so sums this up (not to mention, sums this site up): Quoted Text
Maybe the most important one was that nothing is impossible if you really set your mind to it, and that you seek help from those who have the knowhow.
Attributed to Staf Snyers, AFV Modeller, Issue 39, Page 26. Very nice build...stunning actually. I love the cover and housing he made. Mike |
| 'The true Soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because He loves what is behind him.' -G. K. Chesterton | | |
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| Jim D
AikinutNY | Location: New York, United States
Member Since: October 21, 2003
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| Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 11:10 AM UTC |
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Seems like they were a work in progress. Started off as a turretless tank with a wooden cover and progressed to the planned one based on the Ausf F chassis, I haven't seen any of these drawings yet. |
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| Mike High
TacFireGuru | | Location: Colorado, United States
Member Since: December 25, 2004
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| Posted: Saturday, October 24, 2009 - 07:00 AM UTC |
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Well....other than "scratch" items (wood, plastic, etc.), here's what I've gathered: Dragon's Sd.Kfz. 171 Panther A Early, #6160 Verlinden's Panther A Zimmerit Damaged Verlinden's Panther A Zimmerit Schurtzen Verlinden's Panther A Interior Tiger Model Designs' Late Chain Hoist #2, #351012. I'll use the article in AFV as a basis for the cover where the turret was. Mike |
| 'The true Soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because He loves what is behind him.' -G. K. Chesterton | | |
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| nick morgan
wetworks | Location: United States
Member Since: July 28, 2009
Posts: 12 entire network,
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| Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 - 05:42 AM UTC |
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mike,
i can tell you about the VERLINDEN zimmerit. it is very thick, i'ts copper coated brass. i tried it on the same panther you are useing. please don't let me detour you from your bergepanther. i'm also in the middle of building one. here's what i used, italeri berg model for the base, verlinden berg interior, dragon wheels, fruilmodel tracks,left-over photo-etch from 4 previous pannther builds, and some photo-etched shurzen. good luck mike with your berg.
rspectfuly yours,
nick morgan |
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