Dioramas
Do you love dioramas & vignettes? We sure do.
Ramckes' Iron Men
panzerconor
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Posted: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 - 09:37 AM UTC
I feel like I should be taking notes, as this is a great lesson for me hahaha. I love the look of that guy, he really does convey that bad ass feel.

I'm reading "Jump into Hell" at the moment, everything you said is pretty much backed up by the book. You really gotta admire just how tough these guys were, even towards the later stages of the war.

I think this is Max Schmeling here...not sure though just because it's online doesn't make it true



Either way, he looks like he's got the same build as the fig you're working on now.

-Conor
1stjaeger
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Posted: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 - 10:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I did plan on whittling him down a bit but remember,the Ramcke Brigade was mostly pre or early war Paras. Actually real paratroopers,not like the later German formations that had the name only. This old soldier is supposed to look different than the other guys in this vignette and so,I would think he would still look a little bad-ass.
Remember the pre-war Paras had guys like Max Schmelling,the one time heavy weight boxing champ and these guys didn't mess around.
J




Don't get me wrong Jerry, I just relate to the photos..and the fact that troops in NA were hard pressed in general, but more so even for these guys. Food was scarse and that leaves traces.
It does not mean they weren't tough!! On the contrary!

Forget (poor) Schmeling (and yes, it's definitely him on the photo). A heavyweight boxing champion is always something special.
He was not in NA by the way (of course not, he had to pose for propaganda photos and films).

What I mean is that every period has its specific look in the protagonists.
Today's troops look different from f.ex. WWI or even ACW. If you see photos of WWI Tommies and compare them to regimental photos of today's Irak fighters, you see what I mean.

But don't worry, I'm prepared to take the Spiess just like you'll render him!!

Cheers bro!

Romain
jrutman
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Posted: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 - 02:01 PM UTC
Thanks guys for keeping up with this deal here. I respect your opinion Romain because the areas you outlined in photoshop are the exact areas I agree need more work.
Here is a different angle after a bit more whittling.


And there you see the neck is OK,it was just the angle of the previous shots. I did take a lot off his back though,and will take more,as well as more from the arms.
The next guy will be a young NCO but he is a little buff in the shoulders as well.
jrutman
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Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2013 - 02:01 AM UTC
I could make then look more buff,like these guys?


Or skinnier like this guy


Or almost gone,like this guy

Or,just through up my hands in defeat like this guy?




Heheheheh,too much coffee.
J
1stjaeger
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Posted: Thursday, October 03, 2013 - 05:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks guys for keeping up with this deal here. I respect your opinion Romain because the areas you outlined in photoshop are the exact areas I agree need more work.
Here is a different angle after a bit more whittling.


And there you see the neck is OK,it was just the angle of the previous shots. I did take a lot off his back though,and will take more,as well as more from the arms.
The next guy will be a young NCO but he is a little buff in the shoulders as well.



that last chap looks terrific..like Captain America!

He can proudly serve in any football team, but he has never lacked food or known dysentery (quite common in NA).

The skinny SS guy from your last post is perfect. He does not "fill in" the uniform.

The Spiess looks a lot better now!

Carry on Sir!

Cheers

Romain

jrutman
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Posted: Friday, October 04, 2013 - 05:29 AM UTC
Well,here is the General hisself,


Doesn't look too bad. This was taken right after they showed up back in German lines after weeks on the run behind enemy lines.

Here is the final version of Der Speiss. I thinned down the arms and back more and added the missing thigh and back pockets made from lead foil.



The squad leader got his shoulders narrowd a good bit. His waist was already very thin and so was good. I really like the Tamiya MP40 pouches in their newer desert Kubelwagen kit as they conform very well to the wearers body. The breadbags are nice as well.
1stjaeger
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Posted: Friday, October 04, 2013 - 06:57 AM UTC

Big improvement on the 2 Kerle!!! Congrats bro!!

This is going to be brilliant for sure!!!

Cheers

Romain
jrutman
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Posted: Saturday, October 05, 2013 - 01:33 AM UTC
Thanks Romain,
Still plugging away. It appears I will have more time as my eye suffered a setback last night and I won't be painting for a few more days.
J
SdAufKla
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Posted: Saturday, October 05, 2013 - 02:10 AM UTC
This is coming along very nicely, Jer.

I think you have a good range of different characters developing for this scene, and it should be quite interesting when it's done. The variety and personality between the figures adds a lot of life and realism that's not apparent in the "cookie cutter" boxed figure sets until you see it in a vignette like you have here.

Sorry to hear about your eyes, and I hope you're back to painting soon.
jrutman
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Posted: Saturday, October 05, 2013 - 03:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text

This is coming along very nicely, Jer.

I think you have a good range of different characters developing for this scene, and it should be quite interesting when it's done. The variety and personality between the figures adds a lot of life and realism that's not apparent in the "cookie cutter" boxed figure sets until you see it in a vignette like you have here.

Sorry to hear about your eyes, and I hope you're back to painting soon.



Thanks buddy,it's always nice to hear you guys chime in.
I am really into trying to add more drama to my little people scenes and Hornet heads really go a long long way in making that possible. It is the frustrated movie maker in me I suppose. I just wish I had the eyes and the patience (and skill)to paint these faces in a way that shows more of that drama I am attempting to portray.
As I type this I am looking at the picture right next to the reply box on which I am currently typing into and seeing a magnificent Alpine figures' head painted brilliantly so...that is why the envy is showing right now I guess?
Still following that little gem of a carrier build of yours,great job man.
Thanks again for taking the time to post here.
J
jrutman
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Posted: Monday, October 07, 2013 - 07:07 AM UTC
Not much dane as it was a busy weekend here. The squad leader got himself armed with a grenade and his breadbag,canteen and helmet



The number 3 got his ammo drum carrier and the straps for it. The K59 drum carrier is sweet.

The number one gunner got his drum and tripod and helmet and I replaced his hand. The original was grasping the handle for an ammo can and that seemed too much weight for the long distance being walked here to be carried far in the hand.

I had to reposition the fingers and that needs work yet I see.
New guy. I broke down and added an officer. I usually like to avoid using them in scenes as they were pretty rare in combat scenes like this. But,I wanted to scratch a compass and flashlight so I started that here. Miniart dude with Alpine head.

He will wrap up the figs.
J
panzerconor
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Posted: Monday, October 07, 2013 - 02:56 PM UTC
I really like those MP40 pouches you've got on the first para. What kit did you get them from? The detail looks good and they sit conform perfectly. Well, ALL of the gear you've got on these guys sits perfectly, the MP40 pouches just stood out to my eye. The new officer fig looks good as well, he looks like I would expect a German officer to look like hahaha. The definition on the number one gunners arm looks great too. Did you do that?

Great figures sir.

-Conor
1stjaeger
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Posted: Monday, October 07, 2013 - 09:09 PM UTC

Hi Jerry,

sorry to hear about further eye problems!! I keep my fingers crossed that you will feel better soon!!

Now as to the Offizier...try something an art teacher of mine told me (you probably heard of it too!):

take the waist belt as the basis and draw 90° (vertical) lines upward from the outer edge...and you will find out the relation (in width) between waist and shoulder belt.

For "normal" people the difference should not be too big.
This figure also shows a bit of an hourglass shape, doesn't he (extremely slim waist to huge chest and bulging pelvis).

I know from experience that tight fitting clothes are not the ideal choice for desert activities. The photos you posted confirm this.

Not easy to handle, but I fully trust your modelling abilities!!

Take care of yourself m8...and get well soon!!

Cheers

Romain


Karl187
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Posted: Monday, October 07, 2013 - 11:11 PM UTC
I've been watching this thread develop over the past few days, not really wanting to interrupt the fantastic flow of ideas between you guys- its been great to read it all and see how things are turning out. Again, Jerry- sorry to hear about further eye problems- I hope you get it sorted soon mate.

I'm really digging the squad leader and the Number 3 at the minute- they both look dog-tired and weighed down- I must say that K59 drum carrier is a beauty- I've used some of their stuff in the past and it is always top class although ultra-delicate. The gunner looks pretty damn exhausted aswell, the stance and pose really convey that well. Nice to see another figure added to the mix too- I'm looking forward to seeing how he turns out. I have to agree with Romain about his shape though, the shoulders and chest and legs seem out of proportion to the waist- but he looks to be at an early stage and if there's one guy who can sort a figure out Jerry, its you!
jrutman
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Posted: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 - 02:29 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I really like those MP40 pouches you've got on the first para. What kit did you get them from? The detail looks good and they sit conform perfectly. Well, ALL of the gear you've got on these guys sits perfectly, the MP40 pouches just stood out to my eye. The new officer fig looks good as well, he looks like I would expect a German officer to look like hahaha. The definition on the number one gunners arm looks great too. Did you do that?

Great figures sir.



-Conor



Hey Conor,
Thanks as always for the kind words good buddy. The MP40 pouches are from the newer Tamiys Kubelwagen in the desert kit that comes with paras. I used the K98k pouches and the MP40 pouches from that kit.
The gunners arm was dome with a dremel and number 11 blade so far. It is not finished yet as the hand and fingers still need work.
Thansk for keeping with me and for commenting,
J
jrutman
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Posted: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 - 02:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I've been watching this thread develop over the past few days, not really wanting to interrupt the fantastic flow of ideas between you guys- its been great to read it all and see how things are turning out. Again, Jerry- sorry to hear about further eye problems- I hope you get it sorted soon mate.

I'm really digging the squad leader and the Number 3 at the minute- they both look dog-tired and weighed down- I must say that K59 drum carrier is a beauty- I've used some of their stuff in the past and it is always top class although ultra-delicate. The gunner looks pretty damn exhausted aswell, the stance and pose really convey that well. Nice to see another figure added to the mix too- I'm looking forward to seeing how he turns out. I have to agree with Romain about his shape though, the shoulders and chest and legs seem out of proportion to the waist- but he looks to be at an early stage and if there's one guy who can sort a figure out Jerry, its you!




Thanks as always Karl,for weighing in and posting. Always look forward to your posts buddy. I am happy I got the theme here cross to you. Dead tired,that is what I hoped to portray. I am posting some more pics so you and Romain get a better feel for the thing here.
J
jrutman
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Posted: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 - 02:40 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Hi Jerry,

sorry to hear about further eye problems!! I keep my fingers crossed that you will feel better soon!!

Now as to the Offizier...try something an art teacher of mine told me (you probably heard of it too!):

take the waist belt as the basis and draw 90° (vertical) lines upward from the outer edge...and you will find out the relation (in width) between waist and shoulder belt.

For "normal" people the difference should not be too big.
This figure also shows a bit of an hourglass shape, doesn't he (extremely slim waist to huge chest and bulging pelvis).

I know from experience that tight fitting clothes are not the ideal choice for desert activities. The photos you posted confirm this.

Not easy to handle, but I fully trust your modelling abilities!!

Take care of yourself m8...and get well soon!!

Cheers

Romain





Thanks for posting again buddy. I think I may have gone overboard thinning the waist down and now have to catch up with thinning the shoulders a bit more. I just started on this guy and so there is much to address. Now that I think I have the basic pose down I can tweek the guy.
Here we see the real deal and the fact that the shorts were very baggy. I have to add some creases and folds to better convey that. This bad ass para is getting his Iron Cross from Ramcke after the survival march. He still has good muscle tone and looks pretty fit,although to be fair this event is several weeks after the escape.


Here is my officer from a few different angles so you can see the shorts. They were cut very generously in real life and are not tight fitting here at all.




The back view shows how wide the shoulders are now in relation to his waist and you are perfectly correct but you just have to give me a bit more time to work on this guy.
The field glasses were very true to scale so therefor extremely delicate and I managed to break them in half. Work continues.
J
1stjaeger
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Posted: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 - 04:46 AM UTC
just love these deep folds and creases!! They provide opportunities all over!!

The back view shows the problem clearly! Twice (or more?) as wide as the waist.
Enough to make Rocky envious!

Paratroopers are strong, but wirily so. More Bruce Lee than Schwarzenegger, right!?

But as I said...I fully trust you'll do OK!!

Cheers

Romain

P.S.: oh yes, the guy receiving the medal....his helmet is ....well exactly like I know the para helmets..(almost) level at the bottom edge, hence my question regarding the guy on page 1 with his "fritz" helmet!
jrutman
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Posted: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 - 07:43 AM UTC

Quoted Text

just love these deep folds and creases!! They provide opportunities all over!!

The back view shows the problem clearly! Twice (or more?) as wide as the waist.
Enough to make Rocky envious!

Paratroopers are strong, but wirily so. More Bruce Lee than Schwarzenegger, right!?

But as I said...I fully trust you'll do OK!!

Cheers

Romain

P.S.: oh yes, the guy receiving the medal....his helmet is ....well exactly like I know the para helmets..(almost) level at the bottom edge, hence my question regarding the guy on page 1 with his "fritz" helmet!



Well yes,but the fritz helmet was removed from that head along with all of the para jump smock and about 30 pounds of flesh.
J
Karl187
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Posted: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 - 10:35 PM UTC
The proportions are coming on really well now Jerry- the pose you have got him in is an interesting one too- are those Dragon Gen 2 binoculars you broke in half? I've done it myself with them- they are nicely detailed but one wrong touch and they snap!
SdAufKla
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 - 01:40 AM UTC
Hi Jerry,

FWIW, I think the side views of patrol leader look quite nice, so if I offered any suggestion, it would be to try to get the front and rear views to balance with the sides. I think the side views have a nice "bagginess" to them - a lean guy wearing loose cloths. From the front and rear (especially) the shirt particularly looks a little too tight around the waist and across the back of the shoulders.

Perhaps some more folds on the sides of his shirt over the belt with perhaps a little bit more material to add some thinner folds across the back of his shoulders would make the shirt look a little less "tailored" from the front and rear. Maybe consider adding just a little more material to the sides of his shorts, also just under the belt.

Note in your awards ceremony photo how the receiving officer's shorts fold away from his leg just under his belt. (In the space under elbow of the officer in the foreground.) I think this is what your side views show that might be lacking when seem from the front and rear.

I don't think it's a problem with the guy's basic anatomy, but more with the way the cloths are hanging on him in a couple of places.

However, all of this could also just be a trick of the camera since the perfect front and rear views don't allow us to see the sides. When seen in person or from a 3/4 view, the figure might look quite balanced. Hard to tell from just a couple of quick looks.

I'm really enjoying watching these guys come together. It's all very inspirational and motivating.
jrutman
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 - 05:59 AM UTC
Karl and Mike,
Thanks as always for looking in. Good ideas and comments as usual from you guys. I did have more planned for the officer when I posted the initial pix. I should have made it more clear he was a work in progress maybe?
But I like the comments because the end result is,it proves that you guys know your stuff 'cause you were looking at the same areas I saw needed looking into. This way,I know I can trust your opinions. I hope that didn't sound egotistical because it wasn't what I mean or am??
I am trying to give you guys credit is all.
I made some adjustments in the torso,as much as I could do before adding any putty. The clothes were baggy but did have a air filled puffy look so I thought the best thing to do was to add some deep creases here and there where they would make sense. Here he is as of now



There is still stuff to alter of course.
Karl,yes those were Dragon binos and very delicate to handle for sure. Nice though.
jrutman
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 - 06:02 AM UTC
Mike,
I could see maybe some smaller folds on his back midway but I would think the shirt would rest on the top of his back and shoulders as it was dirty and the weight of the bottom of the shirt would thus pull it down?
J
1stjaeger
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Posted: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 - 07:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Karl and Mike,
Thanks as always for looking in. Good ideas and comments as usual from you guys. I did have more planned for the officer when I posted the initial pix. I should have made it more clear he was a work in progress maybe?
But I like the comments because the end result is,it proves that you guys know your stuff 'cause you were looking at the same areas I saw needed looking into. This way,I know I can trust your opinions. I hope that didn't sound egotistical because it wasn't what I mean or am??
I am trying to give you guys credit is all.
I made some adjustments in the torso,as much as I could do before adding any putty. The clothes were baggy but did have a air filled puffy look so I thought the best thing to do was to add some deep creases here and there where they would make sense. Here he is as of now



There is still stuff to alter of course.
Karl,yes those were Dragon binos and very delicate to handle for sure. Nice though.




Oh wow!!! What an improvement!!!
You are a genius m8!!

Regarding the folds/creases you are right with regard to a certain "puffy" look.

Is it possible that the shirt would be sweaty over the upper part of the back/shoulders and thus clinging more to the skin....but the lower part, not being fitted/waisted, is less humid and would bulge out and (partly) over the belt.
Less voluminous folds would be appropriate too, as the cloth for tropical shirts is rather thin. Present folds could be of a Mantel

I've tried to show areas on pics (yet again ). Maybe they are helpful!?!?



meaning a curb in the back and on the backside

and



meaning (narrower) folds drawn down to the belt-line a bit.

As usual, lots of blabla and I hope you can make a little sense of it!

Sorry to be a pain in the b........., but I want these to be absolutely perfect...and you are nearly there!!!!!!!!

Cheers m8!

Romain

jrutman
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Posted: Thursday, October 10, 2013 - 01:41 AM UTC
While I agree with you about the curve and folds in the back of the shirt and will be working on improving that area,I don't agree about the back of the short pants. The pics I have show these to be baggy and they have a weird shape to them. They look like they are filled with a large butt but they are just shaped like that and are empty so they look to be filled with air.
I always go with trying to portray realism so I will leave them alone. I have never been one to blindly follow the self appointed modeling leaders in other areas and this will be no different. And no Romain......that statement was not directed at you or any other specific person for that matter.
J