_GOTOBOTTOM
Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
ACAV M1's and M3's Germany Circa 1980's?
Crottykid16
Visit this Community
Iowa, United States
Joined: February 22, 2014
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 07:39 AM UTC
So looking ahead to my next build here I want to do 2 models related into a simple (if not some what detailed if have time and money) Diorama. The setting will be Central West Germany. Some where some what close to the Fulda Gap. I plan to use for my vehicles two sets

Tamiya's M1 Abrams(MM-224A) and M3 Bradley CFV (3631)





Along with some infantry (Tamiya 35153)



I want to have the M3 and 4 foot soldiers acting as well Acav scouts! ALong with the M1 on the road behind...But that is for another post to get more details in about the setting and such.

I am trying to model this up straight from the kits here as my first major undertaking. I was thinking about MERDC patterns but it would seem all the M1's and M2/3's were never painted in MERDC while station in Germany.I have looked through many REFORGER pics but don't seem to catch anything just a few field camo's here and there among US forces. So here are my questions for anyone who might know or have a source for this!

1.Were there any units painted in MERDC that were Cav units with the Abrams and Bradley's?

2. So if not painted in MERDC what was the green they were painted, what is a good match for this Tamiya's Dark Green? Or is there a different color that was officially used from off the production line of these?

3. Did Cav scouts ever paint "field craft" camouflage on their vehicles frequently can I get a source of examples please? Would these apply to both M1's and the M3 scouts?

4. Infantry Camo & Uniforms, will the infantry set I have work for the foot scouts(painted in woodland not chocolate chip)?

5. If I am really set on MERDC and wanted a Cav unit with MERDC...Well could it have happened? Say a state side Cav unit shipped over there as part of REFORGER?

Thank you for reading!
-CK16
Cookiescool2
Visit this Community
Georgia, United States
Joined: May 09, 2014
KitMaker: 273 posts
Armorama: 270 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 07:59 AM UTC
I'm afraid I can't answer your questions. But I will wait to see how this build turns out, very excited to see how it shapes out!
GeraldOwens
Visit this Community
Florida, United States
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
Armorama: 3,697 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 08:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

So looking ahead to my next build here I want to do 2 models related into a simple (if not some what detailed if have time and money) Diorama. The setting will be Central West Germany. Some where some what close to the Fulda Gap. I plan to use for my vehicles two sets

Tamiya's M1 Abrams(MM-224A) and M3 Bradley CFV (3631)





Along with some infantry (Tamiya 35153)



I want to have the M3 and 4 foot soldiers acting as well Acav scouts! ALong with the M1 on the road behind...But that is for another post to get more details in about the setting and such.

I am trying to model this up straight from the kits here as my first major undertaking. I was thinking about MERDC patterns but it would seem all the M1's and M2/3's were never painted in MERDC while station in Germany.I have looked through many REFORGER pics but don't seem to catch anything just a few field camo's here and there among US forces. So here are my questions for anyone who might know or have a source for this!

1.Were there any units painted in MERDC that were Cav units with the Abrams and Bradley's?

2. So if not painted in MERDC what was the green they were painted, what is a good match for this Tamiya's Dark Green? Or is there a different color that was officially used from off the production line of these?

3. Did Cav scouts ever paint "field craft" camouflage on their vehicles frequently can I get a source of examples please? Would these apply to both M1's and the M3 scouts?

4. Infantry Camo & Uniforms, will the infantry set I have work for the foot scouts(painted in woodland not chocolate chip)?

5. If I am really set on MERDC and wanted a Cav unit with MERDC...Well could it have happened? Say a state side Cav unit shipped over there as part of REFORGER?

Thank you for reading!
-CK16


The base color was Forest Green, FS34079. It's available from Testors Model Master as a USAF Cammo color.

Tamiya's M1 depicts an XM1 or very early M1 production tank, as the blowout panels on the turret roof are trapezoidal in shape. Very early on, they were changed to three rectangular panels (one large one in the center, two narrow ones on each side). Patient cutting with an X-acto knife will take out the three blowout panels as one piece, and swapping in some sheet styrene is pretty simple. Using a knife rather than saws or a hot tool takes longer, but it's less destructive to surrounding details. Just keep scribing gently, replacing the blade as needed, and eventually you can flex the turret part, and the roof section will pop out.
didgeboy
Visit this Community
Washington, United States
Joined: September 21, 2010
KitMaker: 1,846 posts
Armorama: 1,509 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 08:50 AM UTC
Just about every thing in Germany was the factory OD green or forest green. If memory serves, MERDC was more of a stateside thing. BDUs were ALL woodland, there was no cchip in service anywhere in Europe. Tamiyas infantry set that is all woodland is a great set for the look of USAREUR in 1980s. Good luck!
Crottykid16
Visit this Community
Iowa, United States
Joined: February 22, 2014
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 08:57 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Just about every thing in Germany was the factory OD green or forest green. If memory serves, MERDC was more of a stateside thing. BDUs were ALL woodland, there was no cchip in service anywhere in Europe. Tamiyas infantry set that is all woodland is a great set for the look of USAREUR in 1980s. Good luck!



I do have that set as well! There are what looks like the same figures in this set as well but added a few more the Dragon gunner is a big one I wanted there! Don't worry I wont paint them in the chocolate chip pattern in a woodland setting . they will be in woodland BDU's
mkp
Visit this Community
Hessen, Germany
Joined: November 10, 2005
KitMaker: 35 posts
Armorama: 35 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 01:57 PM UTC
Eric, the unit at the Fulda Gap was the 11th ACAV, but their tanks were painted forest green at this time. In the Verlinden books about the M1 and M2/3 were pictures of an unit in the US with MERDC Summer verdant, but I don't remember the unit.
Very interesting was the MERDC pattern with black stripes in "X"-shape. Maybe someone here has the book at hand to complete the unit's number .

Good luck!
Bravo1102
Visit this Community
New Jersey, United States
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 04:06 PM UTC
Try the old 194th Armored Brigade in Fort Knox. Armored divisions and separate birgades had cavalry units in them as division scouts, so there would be ACAV unit in an armored division. The 194th being a stateside unit had everything in MERDC and would deploy to Europe, but... some of the time units coming for REFORGER used equipment from stocks in Europe that was Forest Green (the base color of the MERDC camouflage)



There could also be the First Cavalry Division and the old First squadron of the First Cavalry regiment which was division scouts? so you'd have the interesting bumper codes of 1CAV 1/1CAV?


I just noticed the bumper codes on the boxtop of the Tamiya M3 is for 2nd Armored Division, 41st Infantry so would be from the scout section of regular armored infantry. But I know it's so romantic to do _ACR on the bumper. If MERDC you'll have to settle for divisional/brigade scouts and find one that has CAV in the title.


Tankrider
Visit this Community
Oklahoma, United States
Joined: October 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
Armorama: 1,208 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 06:43 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Try the old 194th Armored Brigade in Fort Knox. Armored divisions and separate brgades had cavalry units in them as division scouts, so there would be ACAV unit in an armored division. The 194th being a stateside unit had everything in MERDC and would deploy to Europe, but... some of the time units coming for REFORGER used equipment from stocks in Europe that was Forest Green (the base color of the MERDC camouflage)

There could also be the First Cavalry Division and the old First squadron of the First Cavalry regiment which was division scouts? so you'd have the interesting bumper codes of 1CAV 1/1CAV?

I just noticed the bumper codes on the boxtop of the Tamiya M3 is for 2nd Armored Division, 41st Infantry so would be from the scout section of regular armored infantry. But I know it's so romantic to do _ACR on the bumper. If MERDC you'll have to settle for divisional/brigade scouts and find one that has CAV in the title.



The 194th didn't get M1s until 1988 (right DJ) and the tanks were former 3ID vehicles that had the added turret bustle rack. The Brigade deactivated and its foot print was reduced to a combined arms task force (three Tank Companies, 2 Mech companies and an Artillery battery) before they transitioned to Brads.

Divisonal Ground Cavalry Troops (GCTs) in the 80s/early 90's consisted of three Bradley platoons and a mortar section. After Desert Storm, all GCTs (ACR & DIV CAV) were standardized with: two tank and two scout platoons and a mortar section. Options for the dio could be either a tank platoon attached to the TF Scout platoon (Same Division & Battalion markings and differant company markings) or a tank platoon attached to a DIV CAV Scout platoon (same divisional markings with differant Squadron/battalion and troop/company markings)

If the desire is to paint the M1 & M3 in a MERDC scheme, then 1st Cavalry or 2nd Armored out of Hood is about your only choice as both Divisions had early M1s and M2/3s and they were painted in the MERDC scheme. If the 11th ACR is the unit, then Forest Green (FS34079) is going to be the color, although 11th ACR tanks sported some unique mud and whitewash temporary camo jobs at various times.

Gerald, i will disagree with your statement on the "supposedly" rectangular blow off panels on the M1 turret. I have measured a late in the M1 production run tank (SN:5000 series) and its blow off panels and they were indeed trapezoids. The width measurements were within inches of each other but they were indeed different widths.


John
Treadhead12
Visit this Community
Kentucky, United States
Joined: September 26, 2007
KitMaker: 162 posts
Armorama: 116 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 07:43 PM UTC
To add what John stated.

For the 11th ACR about 1985/86, the M1 tanks and M3 CFV's were the forest green as mentioned as the vehicles had the CARC (Chemical Agent Resistant Coating) 'paint' on them. At the time the CARC only came in forest green. Any vehicles fieled into the POMCUS sites were also forest green. (POMCUS are storage sites for units deploying to West Germany in case of war, and also used by units deploying for the Reforger exercises).

The M3 CFV only had five crew members, three to operate the vehicles, and two dismount scouts. The M3 CFV did not have any Dragon ATGM's with it, only TOW ATGM's. The M3 CFV did carry more ammunition for the 25mm gun and had 12 TOW ATGM's.

The M2 IFV did have infantry dismounts and the Dragon ATGM with it for the dismount team. The 3rd ID did have the first M2 in Europe that were forest green (they also received the first M1 tanks in Europe), but then you would need a M2 IFV kit.

One could do a passage of lines dio with some M3 CFV's passing through an infantry position with dismounts and a M1 tank. Just a thought. Have fun with the kits. I have both of these models finished for a while.....

[Just to show my age - 11th ACR in 1979, force modernization in V Corps from 1980 - 1966, sometimes feel it].
Crottykid16
Visit this Community
Iowa, United States
Joined: February 22, 2014
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 08:17 PM UTC
Hey thanks for all the feedback, keep it up !

Now got a few more questions.

1. For Forest Green, would Tamiya's Dark Green(XF-62) work?
(Off this MERDC guide) http://gurth.home.xs4all.nl/afv/merdc.html


2. What would be a typical loadout of the 2 scouts in the Bradley? What would they do usually? Did they dismount ever?

3. Any reference pictures of the field craft camo on M1's and M3's? Seen a few M1's but no Bradley's. Need Bradley references here!

Once again thank you guys!
HeavyArty
Visit this Community
Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 10:34 PM UTC
Actually, the Tamiya M3 kit is not an M3, but an M2 with blanked off side firing ports. The open ports and guns are still in the kit as well to allow you to build an M2A0. The M3A0 had a different top rear hatch with four periscopes on the hatch as opposed to three on the rear deck above the ramp.

This is an M3A1 (blanked off firing ports and larger turret bustle rack) from 24 ID during ODS, but it has the M3 top hatch.


The biggest difference on an M3A0 is the rear troop area on the inside. The M3 has only two seats for the two scouts. On an M2A0, there are multiple individual seats for the squad members.

M3 interior layout.


The scouts do dismount the Brad to set up observation posts and lookouts when the vehicle is in a static position, such as along the Fulda Gap.
chnoone
Visit this Community
Armed Forces Europe, United States
Joined: January 01, 2009
KitMaker: 1,036 posts
Armorama: 1,033 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 10:46 PM UTC
The M1s would all be OD/Forest Green ... no other camo except "mud" or winter white wash paint patterns.
Some Bradley's did receive a NATO-3 Tone came around 1988 onwards, about the same time the first M1A1s were fielded in Germany, but some were soon to be replaced shortly before, and all after ODS with the new A2 version in factory applied Nato-3tone camo.
FTX 's Certain Strike 1987 and Caravan Guard 1989 would be your keywords to look for ... try Utube there is some stuff.
Uniforms would be Woodland BDUs for all Army units.
Hope this helps !

Cheers
Christopher
Treadhead12
Visit this Community
Kentucky, United States
Joined: September 26, 2007
KitMaker: 162 posts
Armorama: 116 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 11:06 PM UTC
Good info, t'anks for the photos, like reading and seeing it, brings back some memories...

The dismount scouts would have M16A1 rifles until 1987 when the M16A2 rifles were fielded in Europe. No SAW's, no M60 MG's.

The wooodland Battle Dress Uniform (BDU) were first available for issue and/or purchase 1981/82 in Europe. Yes, the first ones would shrink, even washed in cold water and air dried.
Crottykid16
Visit this Community
Iowa, United States
Joined: February 22, 2014
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 11:12 PM UTC
So I would need to create these view ports?
Could be done easily (maybe) anything else? Lol


HeavyArty
Visit this Community
Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 11:57 PM UTC

Quoted Text

So I would need to create these view ports?



That is it. The hatch is basically the same, minus the armor plate on the top of the M3A3 hatch.
GaryKato
Visit this Community
California, United States
Joined: December 06, 2004
KitMaker: 3,694 posts
Armorama: 2,693 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 12:29 AM UTC
I think the 4 periscope rear hatch was introduced on the M3A1.
kinmanb
Visit this Community
Texas, United States
Joined: March 19, 2013
KitMaker: 52 posts
Armorama: 49 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 12:32 AM UTC
On the color, the Tamyia XF-62 Dark Green is a good match for the forest green base color for MERDC or if just going with one color.

I just used in another MRDEC pattern I did on an M113. Looks about right when sprayed on.

HTH
Bret
Crottykid16
Visit this Community
Iowa, United States
Joined: February 22, 2014
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 01:11 AM UTC
What about anti-slip coating, was it on early Abrams and Bradley's? If so best way to apply it and a guide to where to apply it at on the hull and turret?

Was looking at Mr .Surfacer 500 but if something is easier to get state side what works?
HeavyArty
Visit this Community
Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 01:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think the 4 periscope rear hatch was introduced on the M3A1.



It was present on the original M3A0 as well. Here is an M3A0 from 24 ID shortly after ODS. Check out the hatch the soldier is sitting on.

GaryKato
Visit this Community
California, United States
Joined: December 06, 2004
KitMaker: 3,694 posts
Armorama: 2,693 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 02:14 AM UTC
Isn't that an M3A1 (deleted firing ports)?
HeavyArty
Visit this Community
Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 02:24 AM UTC
I don't think so. It looks to have the smaller turret bustle rack. I believe late M3A0s had the omitted firing ports as well.
chnoone
Visit this Community
Armed Forces Europe, United States
Joined: January 01, 2009
KitMaker: 1,036 posts
Armorama: 1,033 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 03:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text

What about anti-slip coating, was it on early Abrams and Bradley's? If so best way to apply it and a guide to where to apply it at on the hull and turret?

Was looking at Mr .Surfacer 500 but if something is easier to get state side what works?



M1s had no anti slip and I didn't see any "field applications" in Germany either ... came with the M1A1s off the production line.
Bradley I believe they did ... but not sure 100%

Cheers
Christopher
GaryKato
Visit this Community
California, United States
Joined: December 06, 2004
KitMaker: 3,694 posts
Armorama: 2,693 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 03:27 AM UTC
It also looks to have the step guard over the driver's periscopes.
Crottykid16
Visit this Community
Iowa, United States
Joined: February 22, 2014
KitMaker: 50 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 04:02 AM UTC
Sorry I keep asking question as soon as they are answer!

But, I got a question again more like if anyone knows where a guide is to make the vission blocks for the back hatch? If anyone has some reference pictures please share them here .
Kenaicop
#384
Visit this Community
Nevada, United States
Joined: August 23, 2005
KitMaker: 1,426 posts
Armorama: 1,316 posts
Posted: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 05:12 AM UTC
Google "M2 Bradley in Germany", you'll get some cool period pics of Bradley's as well as plain vanilla M1's in the field. I right-clicked a few myself.
 _GOTOTOP