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Armor/AFV: What If?
For those who like to build hypothetical or alternate history versions of armor/AFVs.
Hosted by Darren Baker
1/35 Sturmpanther II
darklen
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Alberta, Canada
Joined: September 16, 2003
KitMaker: 65 posts
Armorama: 63 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 08, 2016 - 08:16 AM UTC
Finally got around to working on a project I've planned for years. I'm converting Dragons Panther II into a Sturmpanther II. Going all out and doing an up-armored version. Almost done the turret. Added stand off armor from evergreen sheet with some 1.5mm rod for spacer mounts and MENG conical bolts. I "painted" Testors liquid cement on the sheet before putting the bolts on to simulate a rolled steel plate. I roughed up the mantlet with a Dremel and some Gunze Mr. Surfacer 500 to simulate a rough cast texture. The grab handles were replaced with copper wire as the kit plastic was brittle and they snapped cutting them off the sprue. The main gun if right off an ancient Tamiya Sturmpanzer IV. It slid right in after removing the key inside the mantlet for the kit barrel. Periscopes are resin ones from an CMD Schmalturm resin turret I'm using for another Panther II. A few more details and it'll be done. Figuring out what to do with the hull. Might do a similar stand off armor set up but not sure about where to put the tools or even if they should go on.








ColinEdm
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
ARMORAMA
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Alberta, Canada
Joined: October 15, 2013
KitMaker: 818 posts
Armorama: 801 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 08, 2016 - 12:11 PM UTC
Very cool!
urumomo
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Texas, United States
Joined: August 22, 2013
KitMaker: 496 posts
Armorama: 488 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 08, 2016 - 12:41 PM UTC
Interesting look .
I like the stand-off armor but do the periscopes clear the top plate ?
Not the best turret for servicing that breech - but it's what-if .
Any specific reason for the combo , or just what was spares ?

Looking forward to the whole thing !

Cheers
MLD
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Vermont, United States
Joined: July 21, 2002
KitMaker: 3,110 posts
Armorama: 1,783 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 08, 2016 - 01:37 PM UTC
It's a cool looking build, and a good use of the ancient Panther II kit.
It's a great looking wot-if, and therefore immune to logic... but.. How in the world do they load that thing in that turret??
Most of the google search for Brummbar ammo turns up Sturmtiger ammo, and I know the two are not the same, but it would seem difficult if not impossible to load that gun inside that turret.

Where is the ammo stowed?

That said, keep posting pics of the build. It looks great. Very Dust 46-ish.
urumomo
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Texas, United States
Joined: August 22, 2013
KitMaker: 496 posts
Armorama: 488 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 08, 2016 - 01:46 PM UTC
This is a 150mm howitzer
The Sturmtiger is a 380mm rocket
MLD
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Vermont, United States
Joined: July 21, 2002
KitMaker: 3,110 posts
Armorama: 1,783 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 08, 2016 - 02:40 PM UTC

Quoted Text

This is a 150mm howitzer
The Sturmtiger is a 380mm rocket




Quoted Text

Most of the google search for Brummbar ammo turns up Sturmtiger ammo, and I know the two are not the same. But it would seem difficult if not impossible to load that gun inside that turret.



yes, I said that.
ironelf
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New York, United States
Joined: January 27, 2010
KitMaker: 173 posts
Armorama: 135 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 08, 2016 - 02:57 PM UTC
Hi Bob. It looks fantastic. Very creative and great use of older parts. Looking forward to seeing it completed. Cheers! Chris
urumomo
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Texas, United States
Joined: August 22, 2013
KitMaker: 496 posts
Armorama: 488 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 08, 2016 - 03:03 PM UTC
and your point is what I was referring to when I said the turret wasn't the best for servicing the breech .
You could "make" it work , but it would be a battlefield disaster.

darklen
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Alberta, Canada
Joined: September 16, 2003
KitMaker: 65 posts
Armorama: 63 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 - 05:45 AM UTC
I understand the "difficulties" in actually mounting the sIG33 gun into the Schmalturm, but for the sake of the build, it's no more unrealistic than mounting an 88mm as the turret ring is too small for it. I'm just building for fun and I like the looks of it.

And the periscopes do clear the armor plate. The plate comes up just over the vertical plain of the cupola.I would have preferred to use one of the PE sets for the turret roof (and then matched the sides for scale, but no one seems to have any in stock.
urumomo
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Texas, United States
Joined: August 22, 2013
KitMaker: 496 posts
Armorama: 488 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 - 06:00 AM UTC
Right on .
I understand that it's What If .
You said you had been wanting to do it for a while , so I was just curious if there was more back story .
darklen
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Alberta, Canada
Joined: September 16, 2003
KitMaker: 65 posts
Armorama: 63 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 10, 2016 - 02:09 PM UTC
No back story. The Sturmpanther was a proposal to the Wehrmacht but never went anywhere.The Panther II got as far as a completed lower hull but that's it. No turret design was ever finalized or even draw to my knowledge. Just some thicknesses and angles discussed. I've always liked the idea of the "paper panzer" realm and not just the German stuff though they had a lot more of it.
urumomo
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Texas, United States
Joined: August 22, 2013
KitMaker: 496 posts
Armorama: 488 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 10, 2016 - 02:18 PM UTC
I've only seen the sturmmorser proposal with the 150mm mortar using the panther turret .
The F turret is tiny .

I'm not a WOT gamer , but I glimpsed a Soviet T44 mounting the 122mm gun -- Yeah . NO WAY .
....
Look forward to more .
It certainly looks the part so far .
ComradeMP
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United States
Joined: July 31, 2011
KitMaker: 393 posts
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Posted: Thursday, March 10, 2016 - 04:15 PM UTC

Quoted Text



I'm not a WOT gamer , but I glimpsed a Soviet T44 mounting the 122mm gun -- Yeah . NO WAY .
....
.




Yes way. Looks pretty mean. Wonder if Miniart will tackle this one?



Build looks great so far. Can't wait to see how it turns out.
urumomo
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Texas, United States
Joined: August 22, 2013
KitMaker: 496 posts
Armorama: 488 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 10, 2016 - 04:36 PM UTC
I just read the Wkiki page .
I'm not convinced that photo is what you say it is .

If this was really attempted there's good reason they didn't proceed with it ..
There would be way more than operation issues ,
The mass of the gun alone would overwhelm the turret ring and traverse mechanics along with overwhelming the chassis .

But , yeah - it looks bad-a .

I don't believe the Soviets would attempt something that impractical during the war -- especially considering the entire purpose of the T44's introduction .

WE should start another thread beyond that , yeah .

Ciao
darklen
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Alberta, Canada
Joined: September 16, 2003
KitMaker: 65 posts
Armorama: 63 posts
Posted: Monday, March 21, 2016 - 05:21 PM UTC
Finished the side armor and fenders. not sure if I'll keep the original skirt hangers or replace them with something more substantial and pul on heavier, bolt on skirts.






Also used the Aber set to make the bow gunners hatch and lifter details. Needed to supply my own wire for the shafts and coil spring plus some Grandt Line nuts & bolts for some additional detail.

urumomo
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Texas, United States
Joined: August 22, 2013
KitMaker: 496 posts
Armorama: 488 posts
Posted: Monday, March 21, 2016 - 06:40 PM UTC

That's a lot of armor

don't guess I've ever seen it across the sponsons like that.

Are you covering the engine deck also ?

I know you wanted to use PE , but what thickness is the styrene sheet ?
M4A1Sherman
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New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 2,896 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 21, 2016 - 10:23 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I understand the "difficulties" in actually mounting the sIG33 gun into the Schmalturm, but for the sake of the build, it's no more unrealistic than mounting an 88mm as the turret ring is too small for it. I'm just building for fun and I like the looks of it.

And the periscopes do clear the armor plate. The plate comes up just over the vertical plain of the cupola.I would have preferred to use one of the PE sets for the turret roof (and then matched the sides for scale, but no one seems to have any in stock.



Hi, Bob, and everyone else!

Even though I'm a rabid WWII US/Allied fan, this conversion (Of a "Paper-Panzer", no less!) has sparked my interest, especially the "spaced armor"...

A couple of years ago, I converted a 1/35 TRUMPETER E-25 into an sIG.33 auf E-25 "Sturmpanzer", (Yes, with an open top and fully-detailed Interior), following a logical layout; by example, the JP HOBBIES "Sturm-Hetzer" conversion. Of course, since we're talking "Paper-Panzers" here, the Interior of this build IS conjectural, albeit well within the realm of reason. I used a left-over resin TMD sIG.33 for the gun, brass German "treadplate" for the floor, plus a pretty fair amount of other "extras" from my spare parts bins. The Superstructure of the vehicle was built up appropriately in the Gun Compartment area, Front Glacis, and Upper Hull Side-walls, with a built-up Gun Aperture very similar in appearance to the "Sturm-Hetzer's"...

Though pretty unlikely as a vehicle, it was still a lot of fun to do something a little bit different, even as far as "Paper-Panzers" are concerned...

Looking forward to see your VERY NICE effort come to fruition...

BTW- I DID re-position the Suspension Arms on this "hypothetical" to present a "nose-heavy" attitude, in order to simulate the extra "weight" of the sIG.33. Also, I've been rolling around an idea for a similar type of vehicle using a spare VERELINDEN multi-media German 21cm Heavy Mortar, possibly on a "heavier" Chassis... An older captured KV-2, possibly..?
PantherF
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Indiana, United States
Joined: June 10, 2005
KitMaker: 6,186 posts
Armorama: 5,959 posts
Posted: Monday, March 21, 2016 - 11:03 PM UTC
Well, I reelly love this idea Bob! AND I really like the "old" Panther look as the E50 concept Trumpeter did was nice but it was too Kingtigerish for me and this practically could have worked in real life.

But who cares, it's just plain cool!

The one thing I would change is to give your sights more room as the spaced armor is in the way. A minor trim is in order but maybe the armor could be bent down towards the roofline then?

It has me thinking too. This could tow an ammo supply trailer as it is a demolition-type armored vehicle and not really a one-on-one AFV that slugs it out with other tanks.


I do look forward with more progress pics!




Jeff
Thirian24
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Oklahoma, United States
Joined: September 30, 2015
KitMaker: 2,212 posts
Armorama: 2,075 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 02:08 AM UTC
This is awesome. I love the stand off armor. I love Panther II's.
Thirian24
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Oklahoma, United States
Joined: September 30, 2015
KitMaker: 2,212 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - 11:36 PM UTC
I just watched your videos on YouTube. Very impressive. Keep it up, I'm eager to see updates.

Cheers,
Dustin
darklen
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Alberta, Canada
Joined: September 16, 2003
KitMaker: 65 posts
Armorama: 63 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 - 04:48 AM UTC
I used Evergreen sheet for the stand off armor. 1.5mm I think. I'll have to measure later tonight. I'm thinking of making an enclosure of some type on the rear deck for infantry. I've seen it done on some very late war Panthers but I can't find any picture of actual vehicles where you can see inside the enclosure to see if the deck vents are protected. I could probably come up with something that would work, even if it were along the lines of the AA armor used just over the vents.

I was thinking of putting this in a Leningrad/Stalingrad type scene circa 1946/47 alternate time line idea. Maybe in front of a destroyed clothes shop or department store as a tip of the hat to Enemy at the Gates. This Panther II was from the Cyberhobby white box and has the Volksturm infantry with it, which really aren't Volksturm IMO. They look like healthy military age men, not old men and boys. So I was going to use them in the dio along with a tank commander and bow gunner. I like the idea of the ammo trailer, just have to find one, then make the Panther II tow hitch as Dragon never included it with any of the releases. It's significantly different from the kit provided hitch.
urumomo
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Texas, United States
Joined: August 22, 2013
KitMaker: 496 posts
Armorama: 488 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 - 05:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I used Evergreen sheet for the stand off armor. 1.5mm I think. I'll have to measure later tonight. I'm thinking of making an enclosure of some type on the rear deck for infantry. I've seen it done on some very late war Panthers but I can't find any picture of actual vehicles where you can see inside the enclosure to see if the deck vents are protected. I could probably come up with something that would work, even if it were along the lines of the AA armor used just over the vents.

I was thinking of putting this in a Leningrad/Stalingrad type scene circa 1946/47 alternate time line idea. Maybe in front of a destroyed clothes shop or department store as a tip of the hat to Enemy at the Gates. This Panther II was from the Cyberhobby white box and has the Volksturm infantry with it, which really aren't Volksturm IMO. They look like healthy military age men, not old men and boys. So I was going to use them in the dio along with a tank commander and bow gunner. I like the idea of the ammo trailer, just have to find one, then make the Panther II tow hitch as Dragon never included it with any of the releases. It's significantly different from the kit provided hitch.




Awesome .

I'm loving all of that .
I've never seen the infantry enclosure that you're speaking about - pretty interesting .
Sounding like a little RV of death .

Definitely looking forward to more.
Cheers
darklen
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Alberta, Canada
Joined: September 16, 2003
KitMaker: 65 posts
Armorama: 63 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 - 02:39 PM UTC
The Evergreen sheet is .5mm/0.20" while the rod to space the plates is 0.9mm/0.035". The armored box I'm referring to I've seen on a couple of late war panther builds. It's nothing special, just a 3 sided metal box bolted or otherwise secured to the rear deck.

I'd thought about opening up the armor plate around the optics but I though the vehicle would have been a rebuild of a Panther II and with the range I figured it would be used within, they probably wouldn't be needing the optics other than a simple range finding optic. I might still open them up a bit, maybe by bending. I'll see how it works.
darklen
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Alberta, Canada
Joined: September 16, 2003
KitMaker: 65 posts
Armorama: 63 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 24, 2016 - 05:40 AM UTC
Some examples of the "armored box" I've been talking about. Nothing fancy, just a simple metal shield to protect the infantry protecting the vehicle.


urumomo
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Texas, United States
Joined: August 22, 2013
KitMaker: 496 posts
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Posted: Thursday, March 24, 2016 - 07:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text



I'd thought about opening up the armor plate around the optics but I though the vehicle would have been a rebuild of a Panther II and with the range I figured it would be used within, they probably wouldn't be needing the optics other than a simple range finding optic. I might still open them up a bit, maybe by bending. I'll see how it works.



I think you're right - with the mounted infantry and 150 mm it seems to be a close quarters rig .
... you should replace the bow MG with a flamethrower , Bwa-hahahaha -- - I don't know where you put the fuel tanks for it . Maybe the trailer .

Ciao