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Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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waffenfarbe question
Biggles2
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Posted: Thursday, July 21, 2016 - 10:33 PM UTC
Did the anti-tank (towed) units of an infantry division have red waffenfarbe of the artillery, or white for infantry.
GazzaS
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Posted: Friday, July 22, 2016 - 12:49 AM UTC
Rose pink, sir.
Biggles2
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Posted: Friday, July 22, 2016 - 07:37 PM UTC
Are you kidding? Pink is for armor.
LikesTanks
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Posted: Friday, July 22, 2016 - 08:47 PM UTC
Pink is indeed for armour, and also for anti-tank battalions of infantry divisions (and panzer/panzergrenadier divisions)
slug955
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Posted: Friday, July 22, 2016 - 08:51 PM UTC
It can get confusing but basically anything tank or anti tank was pink waffenfarbe. Artillery waffenfarbe was red so crews of Stugs (which started out as mobile artillery) also had red waffenfarbe. They continued with red waffenfarbe even when the Stugs became basically anti tank. Said it was confusing.
GazzaS
#424
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Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2016 - 02:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Are you kidding? Pink is for armor.



See? I wasn't kidding

Gaz
easyco69
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Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2016 - 02:36 AM UTC

Quoted Text

It can get confusing but basically anything tank or anti tank was pink waffenfarbe. Artillery waffenfarbe was red so crews of Stugs (which started out as mobile artillery) also had red waffenfarbe. They continued with red waffenfarbe even when the Stugs became basically anti tank. Said it was confusing.


but stug crews continued to wear the grey uniform...for artillery?
mpeplinski
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Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2016 - 02:42 AM UTC
This may help

http://www.germandaggers.com/Gallery/WB.php

Mike
slug955
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Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2016 - 03:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

It can get confusing but basically anything tank or anti tank was pink waffenfarbe. Artillery waffenfarbe was red so crews of Stugs (which started out as mobile artillery) also had red waffenfarbe. They continued with red waffenfarbe even when the Stugs became basically anti tank. Said it was confusing.


but stug crews continued to wear the grey uniform...for artillery?



Only tank and ss got to wear a little black number.....
LikesTanks
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Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2016 - 03:51 AM UTC
Tanks and armoured cars....
Littorio
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Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2016 - 04:26 AM UTC
Except 12th SS who if memory serves me, got to wear captured stocks of Italian camo and leather submarine crew jackets.
DKdent
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Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2016 - 05:22 AM UTC
Hello,

some additional information can be found

here.

Best Regards

Dennis
Greenmachine
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Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2016 - 05:56 AM UTC
The various books on German uniforms confirm that pink is the waffenfarbe for both towed and self propelled antitank units. The early Sturmartellerie units wer used as gun support for infantry units, so their color is red.
Biggles2
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Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2016 - 06:55 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Are you kidding? Pink is for armor.



See? I wasn't kidding

Gaz



Sorry Gazza. I thought you were just being funny by combining red + white. So it was just the same shade of pink as panzer pink? No distinction between the two?
Biggles2
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Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2016 - 07:06 PM UTC
So the personnel of any division could be wearing a multitude of Waffenfarben, depending on their particular branch, or specialty, irregardless that they may all be in an infantry (or whatever) div.? On a slightly different tangent, I've noticed pics (B/W) of anti-aircraft crews of 2 cm guns - Waffenfarbe is not distinguishable. Most wear Luftwaffe uniforms with Luftwaffe style eagle, but some crews are wearing Heer uniforms with appropriate eagle. All 2 cm guns are ground mounted for anti-aircraft use. So were Heer units also trained in Anti-aircraft warfare, or is this just a case of wearing whatever uniform was available at the time?
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Sunday, July 24, 2016 - 03:45 PM UTC

Quoted Text

So the personnel of any division could be wearing a multitude of Waffenfarben, depending on their particular branch, or specialty, irregardless that they may all be in an infantry (or whatever) div.? On a slightly different tangent, I've noticed pics (B/W) of anti-aircraft crews of 2 cm guns - Waffenfarbe is not distinguishable. Most wear Luftwaffe uniforms with Luftwaffe style eagle, but some crews are wearing Heer uniforms with appropriate eagle. All 2 cm guns are ground mounted for anti-aircraft use. So were Heer units also trained in Anti-aircraft warfare, or is this just a case of wearing whatever uniform was available at the time?


In a word yes. Don't think the type of division, think arm of service. However within the infantry regiment in heavy companies there were also Pak and the crews, being infantrymen would wear white.
Flak was originally operated by the Luftwaffe,so Luftwaffe Flak batteries were attached to Heer divisions. Luftwaffe Flak waffenfarbe was red as per artillery. Later Heer and SS formed their own units.
Biggles2
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Posted: Sunday, July 24, 2016 - 06:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text

However within the infantry regiment in heavy companies there were also Pak and the crews, being infantrymen would wear white.



Now this brings me back to my original question about towed Pak's in infantry divisions wearing pink or white Waffenfarbe. At first, the general consensus was pink, and now it's back to white. Is there a distinction between towed Pak's of an infantry regiment (white) of a division, and the Pak regiment (pink) of the same division? I'm modeling a Krupp "Boxer" of an infantry division towing a 3.7 cm Pak, circa summer '42. So would the crew wear pink or white Waffenfarbe? Did an infantry regiment use horse-drawn artillery, or vehicle-drawn? Did only motorized infantry use vehicle-drawn?
Biggles2
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Posted: Sunday, July 24, 2016 - 07:01 PM UTC
OK. I Googled (which is what I should have done), and an infantry reg. has 1 Pak Co. motorized (white Waffenfarbe?), and the same division has a PanzerJager battalion, motorized (pink Waffenfarbe?). Is this correct? Similar weapons and similar vehicles, but different battalions and different Waffenfarbe?
jrutman
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Posted: Sunday, July 24, 2016 - 07:03 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

However within the infantry regiment in heavy companies there were also Pak and the crews, being infantrymen would wear white.



Now this brings me back to my original question about towed Pak's in infantry divisions wearing pink or white Waffenfarbe. At first, the general consensus was pink, and now it's back to white. Is there a distinction between towed Pak's of an infantry regiment (white) of a division, and the Pak regiment (pink) of the same division? I'm modeling a Krupp "Boxer" of an infantry division towing a 3.7 cm Pak, circa summer '42. So would the crew wear pink or white Waffenfarbe? Did an infantry regiment use horse-drawn artillery, or vehicle-drawn? Did only motorized infantry use vehicle-drawn?



In the case you just stated the color would be white. The Infantry Regts had anti-tank platoons in all of the Bn's and also seperate Bn's of anti-tank troops and the towing was based on the type of Division,IE,horse drawn in Regular Divisions and wheeled in Panzer and Panzergrenadier Divs.
J
RonV
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Posted: Sunday, July 24, 2016 - 10:02 PM UTC
I have tended to consider that Waffenfarbe was a Battalion level identifier (but that is probably not always the case). If an soldier was in an Infantry Battalion, he wore white, regardless if he were a rifleman, signaller or medic. The PAK company was probably the same.This thinking doesn't always work so simply but it does make things a touch more understandable.

As for Flak support, until early 1941, all anti-aircraft protection was supplied by Luftwaffe units. The Army found this unsatisfactory and demanded their own units to be incorporated primarily in their motorized divisions. So Army uniforms worn by Flak crewmen is not an aberration.

One could spend an eternity studying this stuff and never find all of the answers.

HTH
Ron Volstad
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Monday, July 25, 2016 - 01:07 AM UTC

Quoted Text

So the personnel of any division could be wearing a multitude of Waffenfarben, depending on their particular branch, or specialty, irregardless that they may all be in an infantry (or whatever) div.? On a slightly different tangent, I've noticed pics (B/W) of anti-aircraft crews of 2 cm guns - Waffenfarbe is not distinguishable. Most wear Luftwaffe uniforms with Luftwaffe style eagle, but some crews are wearing Heer uniforms with appropriate eagle. All 2 cm guns are ground mounted for anti-aircraft use. So were Heer units also trained in Anti-aircraft warfare, or is this just a case of wearing whatever uniform was available at the time?



Luftwaffe units were known as Flak battalions, and Heer antiaircraft units as Fla (no k) battalions.
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