Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
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The "green tunisian Tigers" really exists?
Byrden
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Wien, Austria
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 07:42 PM UTC

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It's quite simple actually-----no one has any idea what they were painted.



I've spent hours investigating this. Thank you for announcing in public that I have achieved nothing.

David
Anmoga
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 08:28 PM UTC
There was a post in Armorama regarding the colors used by the germans in Africa.

It was from an austrian guy who was selling military vehicles in North Africa.

He had them painted with the colors the germans used in Africa and he showed color photos of it with different weather and in different places. In Tunisia the color looked like green.

Look in google for the african RAL colors and you will find the post.

Regards,
Angel
Biggles2
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 08:35 PM UTC

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I personally find it difficult to believe enough stocks of US "olive drab" paint would have been that far forward at Kasserine Pass to have made it into German hands





Germany captured US equipment weeks before the battle of Kasserine Pass. This M3 was photographed on 20 January 1943 at the Karachoum Gap.

David


What are the colors on this M3...Dunklegelb spots over original OD? How did the Germans cover the large US stars - one big ugly patch of Dunklegelb? As there is no trace of US tactical markings on the bumper, was the entire vehicle repainted in German colors?
AgentG
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 08:47 PM UTC

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I personally find it difficult to believe enough stocks of US "olive drab" paint would have been that far forward at Kasserine Pass to have made it into German hands





Germany captured US equipment weeks before the battle of Kasserine Pass. This M3 was photographed on 20 January 1943 at the Karachoum Gap.

David


What are the colors on this M3...Dunklegelb spots over original OD? How did the Germans cover the large US stars - one big ugly patch of Dunklegelb? As there is no trace of US tactical markings on the bumper, was the entire vehicle repainted in German colors?



Mud, quite a common practise in North Africa.

G
Kevlar06
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 09:12 PM UTC
Well now-- look at the tires on that M3-- this could just as easily be a British M3. Or an American M3 with British tires, or have been supplied with directional tires. As for bumper numbers and codes, they can be easily be removed with gasoline or sandpaper, covered in mud, or yes repainted-- but it takes a lot of paint for a repaint of a Tiger. Showing a picture of a captured M3 is a long way from saying the Germans repainted with US olive drab in N. Africa, or anywhere for that matter. No one is denying equipment was captured and employed, the Germans were really good at this throughout the N. African campaign. The point is it doesn't make a lot of sense from a tactical, timeliness or operational standpoint for them repaint a Tiger in captured OD, not that it wasn't perhaps done, but the likelihood of it being done has never been proven. Since the M3 in the photo was not repainted in German colors, what makes anyone think a Tiger was repainted in US colors?
VR, Russ
Anmoga
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 09:24 PM UTC
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/170708&page=1&ord=1
jonvan
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 09:57 PM UTC
I did some looking into this a few years ago. I remember some modeler did a green Tiger for an old WWII allied vet who swore he saw green Tigers in Africa! I personally think it's a bad batch of dunklegelb. Anyways I never did finish my green Tiger but am currently in the process of starting a "purple Rufe". Hey anythings possible!---John
iowabrit
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 10:16 PM UTC
I also am about to embark on a tunisian tiger (I picked up the dragon one cheap from Sprue Bros) I will be doing 112, 132 or 142 as they seem to fit what Dragon supply in the box. I have Eureka small tow ropes, fruil or MK early tracks and a metal gun barrel but I seem to recall someone (probably David)saying that some of these early tigers didn't have the flapper valves fitted to the exhausts? Can anyone confirm or point me to the correct posting?
Oh and I will be doing mine in the darker tan without the green over spray DML suggest
Byrden
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Posted: Thursday, May 25, 2017 - 10:58 PM UTC
They all had the valves at this stage. I've never heard anybody suggest otherwise.

David
iowabrit
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Posted: Friday, May 26, 2017 - 12:57 AM UTC
Then I guess they must have been referring to the covers OVER the flapper valves which were fitted later in the war. Thanks for the prompt reply.
gunnerPhil
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Posted: Friday, May 26, 2017 - 02:01 AM UTC
I rarely post, but here is my opinion...
If you want to know for sure what color the Tunisian Tigers were painted, send a detailed email to the Tank Museum and just simply ask the real experts...
iguanac
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Posted: Friday, May 26, 2017 - 02:17 AM UTC

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Can you tell me the source of this account? Where is it written that a German veteran stated that the Tigers were repainted with American paint?


I remember seeing an interview, so i googled for a veteran story - don't know how true it is but here yo go:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147572
Tojo72
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Posted: Friday, May 26, 2017 - 03:46 AM UTC

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Can you tell me the source of this account? Where is it written that a German veteran stated that the Tigers were repainted with American paint?


I remember seeing an interview, so i googled for a veteran story - don't know how true it is but here yo go:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147572o



Thank you,what a fascinating article
JPTRR
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RAILROAD MODELING
#051
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Posted: Friday, May 26, 2017 - 03:53 AM UTC

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...in the process of starting a "purple Rufe".



hey John,

I gotta dig my purple Rufe out and complete it!

Here's why I believe in the green Tunisian Tiger: because I made one!



I had read that they used Italian Regia Aeronautica paints so I painted it with Verde Mimetico 3.

Since then I've read as many research accounts as I can find and have been convinced and persuaded that green Tunisian Tigers are just a legend. Not to suck-up but I find Byrden's research very credible; until someone can convince me otherwise, he is my go-to source on Tigers.

From my training and career as an illustrator I am fascinated by colors and how they vary under different circumstances; during my flying days I saw colors that didn't look like I knew them to be. Many of you know of the legendary blue camouflaged P-51s and some of you many know of an air power research ace - whom I absolutely admire and respect - who has determined that, yes, they were painted blue. That despite the pilots of the unit signing affidavits supporting research by the US Air Force Museum's late curator, Col. Uppstrom, USAF (Ret.), that they were in fact painted olive drab. So why do they look blue? Why do these look blue?
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That photo was given to me by the F-100 owner 'Cutter'. "Ah", you may say, "the blue is the sky reflecting off a nice silver surface. But would it reflect off olive drab?" Yes, as do these black steam locos under a bright sky.



What I wonder is if the people who saw the green Tigers saw ochre Tigers under unique lighting that cast a bluish tint upon the German paint. Ochres are yellows. Blue and yellow = green.

Just the musings of an old modeler who wonders why green summer deciduous trees look orange in front of the backdrop of a retreating thunderstorm while the sun sets...
panamadan
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Posted: Friday, May 26, 2017 - 04:19 AM UTC
https://cdn.meme.am/instances/400x/45186092.jpg
tatbaqui
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ARMORAMA
#040
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Posted: Friday, May 26, 2017 - 04:55 AM UTC
I doubt that it would have been painted green. Greenish would be a better description.
brekinapez
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Posted: Friday, May 26, 2017 - 05:13 AM UTC
Here are two pics of the same model, one with flash and the other with none:





Gray loves to appear blue under the right lighting.
tatbaqui
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ARMORAMA
#040
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Posted: Friday, May 26, 2017 - 09:45 AM UTC
Yeah, on certain angles or light conditions I've seen that as well on my dark grey builds. In addition, what I have observed is that a dark yellow base coat over a black undercoat results in a greenish tone.
Byrden
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Posted: Friday, May 26, 2017 - 11:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text


i googled for a veteran story - don't know how true it is but here yo go:



That's a very peculiar story and I don't know yet whether to believe it.

He says "he had been in command of the 2 companies of Tigers that had fought at Kasserine pass"

Well, no Tigers at all went through the Kasserine Pass. They fought at Sidi bou Zid which was a nearby battle a few days earlier. And only one company was there; the other company had other duties many miles away. But that alone doesn't make the man wrong, just a little confused.

He also says that "Rommel seemed to be a nice enough fellow". The Tiger battalions were not under Rommel's command and Rommel was not responsible for taking care of them. They belonged to a different army in a different part of Tunisia. Again, this doesn't make the man wrong - he would have had a chance to meet Rommel at the Sidi bou Zid battle, when the Tigers assisted the Afrikakorps - but it's very strange for hom to speak as if Rommel were his commander.

Then he says they had "pistol ports on the back of the turret as well as the 'S-Mine' launchers". Now, this is very suspect. The Tigers of the 501 had no S-mine system and the crews would never have heard of it - and those were the Tigers near Kasserine which he claims to belong to.
The second battalion to arrive in Africa, the 504, had Tigers wired up for S-mines but the launcher devices are missing in every photo that we can see. There was probably a shortage.
And yet, this doesn't quite prove the man wrong. The 501 Tigers, allegedly his ones, eventually joined up with the 504 Tigers. It's possible that some of those Tigers had the full S-mine system. So he *could* have seen it.

It's dubious in places but I can't say that it's untrue.

David



varanusk
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Friday, May 26, 2017 - 12:31 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I rarely post, but here is my opinion...
If you want to know for sure what color the Tunisian Tigers were painted, send a detailed email to the Tank Museum and just simply ask the real experts...



While I do respect the people at the Tank Museum, they are not the only experts.

The fact that someone here posts answering our questions does not necessarily mean he is just an amateur who has read a few books.

Specifically, David Byrden's statements are always based on extensive research, and you can see it if you follow him for some time or check his website http://tiger1.info/

Honestly, I find your comment disrespectful to this gentleman and other who are here sharing their valuable knowledge
PanzerKarl
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Posted: Friday, May 26, 2017 - 04:01 PM UTC
Here's my look on it,RAL 8000 was the base coat of the Tigers and some Panzer IIIs,Now RAL 8000 is Green/Brown so imagine looking at a Tiger from afar it would appear to look more Green than Brown especially in sun light.

The olive Drab Green myth most probably came from Tiger 712 that was captured and repainted in the 70s.

RAL 8000.

firstcircle
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Posted: Friday, May 26, 2017 - 07:19 PM UTC
So, was that photo taken in Tunisia? And this one?
Byrden
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Posted: Friday, May 26, 2017 - 07:42 PM UTC

Quoted Text

So, was that photo taken in Tunisia?



If you want to visit.... http://tiger1.info/event-page/142-exploded
firstcircle
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Posted: Friday, May 26, 2017 - 09:51 PM UTC
Thanks, I was wondering how it ended up in that extreme state of demolition.
GazzaS
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Posted: Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 12:42 PM UTC
Funnily enough, I won this at my Club (AMMS Brisbane) raffle last weekend: