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For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
Tiger I 212 References
KruppCake
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: July 13, 2015
KitMaker: 248 posts
Armorama: 234 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 05:18 AM GMT+7
Hello all,

Would anyone happen to have any reference photos of Tiger I 212? I am trying to figure out which zimmerit pattern goes on the turret and if there is any zimmerit on the flat part in front of the hull MG. Thanks!
Frenchy
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Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 10,633 posts
Armorama: 10,431 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 06:30 AM GMT+7
Maybe this thread would help regarding Zimmerit on sSSPzAbt101 Tigers (providing you're talking about Wittman's possible tank in Villers-Bocage )...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1160406956/Wittmann

H.P.
ericadeane
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Michigan, United States
Joined: October 28, 2002
KitMaker: 3,905 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 06:30 AM GMT+7
Can you share more details? Which kit? Or better yet, which unit and timeframe? You know that "212" is simply a unit level identification number. There could be and were, many "212" numbered Tiger 1s.
KruppCake
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: July 13, 2015
KitMaker: 248 posts
Armorama: 234 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 06:43 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Maybe this thread would help regarding Zimmerit on sSSPzAbt101 Tigers (providing you're talking about Wittman's possible tank in Villers-Bocage )...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1160406956/Wittmann

H.P.



Thanks, H.P.! Yes, I think that's the one I'm referring to.
KruppCake
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: July 13, 2015
KitMaker: 248 posts
Armorama: 234 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 06:47 AM GMT+7

Quoted Text

Can you share more details? Which kit? Or better yet, which unit and timeframe? You know that "212" is simply a unit level identification number. There could be and were, many "212" numbered Tiger 1s.



I'm building the Dragon 6253 Tiger I late kit. I am using ATAK zimmerit for it. I'm still trying to figure out which exact tiger to do, and I was aiming for the paint scheme that the kit attributes to "212".

I didn't know that "212" would be a unit level ID. I thought it would have been a specific tank.

The kit lists "212" as 13th June, 1944 (Villers-Bocage). I'm not sure if this tank (or tanks within this unit, as you said), would have had the larger zimmerit pattern on the turret or the same one as on the body, and if they would have had the flat part in front of the hull MG zimmerited as well.

Also, the kit manual lists 212 as the one Wittman commanded on said date. Is this accurate at all?
Vierville
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Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: April 05, 2014
KitMaker: 194 posts
Armorama: 183 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 10:03 AM GMT+7
There's a lot of debate about which exact tank Wittmann used during the Villers-Bocage action. His Tiger broke down as he was about to set off in pursuit of the British armoured column and he commandeered another machine from his unit...variously believed to be 212 or 222...there is a lot of debate as to which one it actually was.

A word on how the Germans numbered their tanks:

The first number represents the Company (usually three companies in a battalion), the second number is the platoon and the third is the individual tank. So tank 212 is "2nd Company, 1st Platoon, machine number 2".

You can therefore see that in almost every tank batallion there would be a 212.
KruppCake
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: July 13, 2015
KitMaker: 248 posts
Armorama: 234 posts
Posted: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 - 12:23 PM GMT+7

Quoted Text

There's a lot of debate about which exact tank Wittmann used during the Villers-Bocage action. His Tiger broke down as he was about to set off in pursuit of the British armoured column and he commandeered another machine from his unit...variously believed to be 212 or 222...there is a lot of debate as to which one it actually was.

A word on how the Germans numbered their tanks:

The first number represents the Company (usually three companies in a battalion), the second number is the platoon and the third is the individual tank. So tank 212 is "2nd Company, 1st Platoon, machine number 2".

You can therefore see that in almost every tank batallion there would be a 212.



I was reading some of that debate earlier today. Thanks for the info about the numbering, I had no idea thatís how it went!

However, Iím sill quite unsure which unit to accurately make with this particular Dragon kit. I was leaning towards what the kit shows as ď212Ē, but it includes no detail at all about the zimmerit patterns.
KruppCake
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: July 13, 2015
KitMaker: 248 posts
Armorama: 234 posts
Posted: Thursday, October 12, 2017 - 03:27 AM GMT+7
What I've been able to gather so far from online discussions and pictures:

- 212 was likely Wittmann's tank at VB (though can't be proven 100%)
- The turret seems to have had the larger zimmerit pattern
- No zimmerit was present on the flat part under the hull MG

Any thoughts?
d111298pw
#456
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Delhi, India / भारत
Joined: September 22, 2016
KitMaker: 166 posts
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Posted: Thursday, October 12, 2017 - 04:43 AM GMT+7
Here is a link for info on your specific kit. Might be useful to you.

http://tiger1.info/models/products-page/DR6253
KruppCake
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: July 13, 2015
KitMaker: 248 posts
Armorama: 234 posts
Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 - 05:46 AM GMT+7
Here's an update to these questions, for any who might find it of interest:

I recently had the opportunity to speak with Mr. Yann Jouault, a leading expert on the battle of Villers Bocage and the vehicles involved prior to and during the battle. He was able to provide me with definitive answers to the above questions, as well as detailed diagrams and photos to support the findings. The answers to the above questions are as follows:

Tiger 212 would have had
- the turret with the larger zimmerit pattern
- a small idler wheel
- a 40 mm turret roof
- a small muzzle brake
- (likely) zimmerit on the flat part in front of the hull MG
- a monocular gun sight

And last but not least, 212 was likely Wittmann's during the battle

Mr. Jouault's book, published in French (link provided below), gives a detailed account of the battle, as well as supporting information on the vehicles involved.

https://www.amazon.com/Villers-Bocage-Au-c%C5%93ur-bataille-French/dp/284048384X/ref=pd_sim_14_49?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=KMFXG8NX94X4EY25HBX5

Mystery solved