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CO2/Nitrogen Source for Airbrushing
Skarpins1
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Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 04:28 AM UTC
Hopefully it is OK to post this here hoping it will be seen more and someone can help. I have read that some use CO2 or nitrogen for airbrushing and that they have converted a tank they have. I am a scuba diver and have an extra tank that I would like to convert. I have been to the local welding supply stores, explain what I want to do and they look at me like I don't have a clue or say they will not take on the liability of converting it. Hopefully someone can give me explicit directions if it is possible so that I can go back to them, tell them what needs to be done and be able to get it refilled. Thanks.

Stan
120mmSniper
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Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 04:51 AM UTC
Plumbers and a/c techs carry nitrogen tanks. I'm a plumber and I exchange tanks at some plumbing supply houses in the Austin area. Work supplied one tank, but I bought two off Craigslist. I have not used it for airbrushing. I don't think the regulator could handle fine pressure adjustments for that. (It goes to 500psi). I would fill another tank with it and regulate that for airbrushing. The type of tank sold at Lowe's or Sears that's rated for 150psi and meant to be carried around in a car trunk.

You may be able to do the same thing with a scuba tank.

babaoriley
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Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 05:03 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hopefully it is OK to post this here hoping it will be seen more and someone can help. I have read that some use CO2 or nitrogen for airbrushing and that they have converted a tank they have. I am a scuba diver and have an extra tank that I would like to convert. I have been to the local welding supply stores, explain what I want to do and they look at me like I don't have a clue or say they will not take on the liability of converting it. Hopefully someone can give me explicit directions if it is possible so that I can go back to them, tell them what needs to be done and be able to get it refilled. Thanks.

Stan


Take a look at compressed air/nitrogen systems used for paintball. You can buy an adapter to fill these systems from your scuba tank so you could use scuba air with no problems. I wouldn't bother with CO2.

Such systems have also been adapted to run compressed air tools like nailers. A 68 cubic inch 3000 psi system would probably run an airbrush for quite some time. There are various sizes and materials for the tanks, e.g. 3000 or 4500 psi, aluminum or fiber-wrapped, 45 cubic inch, 68 cubic inch etc. Prices go from maybe fifty bucks up to several hundred for the 4500 psi systems wrapped with carbon fiber.

The only problem might be getting the pressure low (and steady) enough to run an airbrush, you might need a secondary regulator for that. The tanks are supposed to be tested and recertified every five years if memory serves.

Since you're a diver I don't need to tell you how carefully compressed air equipment needs to be handled. I've seen people do really dumb things like try to use a chrome-plated brass quick disconnect instead of stainless steel and then run 3-4.5k air through it.

https://www.amazon.com/Maddog-Paintball-Scuba-Fill-Station/dp/B01FLGSDBK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1511481126&sr=8-2&keywords=paintball+compressed+air+fill+station

https://www.amazon.com/Ninja-Compressed-Tank-Adjustable-Regulator/dp/B01JSRLPUE/ref=sr_1_3?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1511481213&sr=1-3&keywords=paintball+compressed+air+tank

I considered this approach since I have a couple of scuba tanks and several paintball CA systems I haven't used in years. But getting an airbrush compressor seemed easier than hauling the scuba tanks back and forth to a dive shop to be refilled. Hope this is helpful.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 05:04 AM UTC
Why? Why do you want to do this?
What advantages would it have compared to an ordinary compressor?

The tank on my compressor has rusted through so I am replacing it with two fire extinguishers (the dry powder type). They are usually filled to twice the pressure that my compressor can deliver so there is plenty safety margin. The will hold enough air to get me through a few painting sessions before the compressor needs to start again.
/Robin
120mmSniper
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Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 05:14 AM UTC
Oh yeah- the reason I haven't tried this is because I have an airbrush compressor.
hardhat
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Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 05:22 AM UTC
I am a commercial diver and have used my 50 cf bailout bottle, which is basically a scuba tank, to airbrush with. However, I was using breathing air, not CO2 or nitrogen. Due to liability, I'm pretty sure no industrial gas supplier will want to be involved with any non certified modifications to a high pressure cylinder. It's also possible that there may be an issue with them filling a life support rated breathing cylinder with non breathable gas, I'm not sure though. You may want to just use air in the scuba tank. You might also consider buying or renting a dedicated gas cylinder from the industrial gas supplier. I have not gone that particular route but many modelers have said that it works well for them and is quite cost effective in the long run.
Hope this helps.
Andrew
M4A3E8Easy8
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Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 06:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Why? Why do you want to do this?
What advantages would it have compared to an ordinary compressor?

The tank on my compressor has rusted through so I am replacing it with two fire extinguishers (the dry powder type). They are usually filled to twice the pressure that my compressor can deliver so there is plenty safety margin. The will hold enough air to get me through a few painting sessions before the compressor needs to start again.
/Robin



The biggest advantage of using a nitrogen tank is the complete lack of water in the air. Any one that has ever had water get into their paint understands the pain that it can be. Other than that the lack of noise is a plus. If you live in an apartment running a compressor late at night or early in the morning is not a good idea.
U-mark
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Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 06:22 AM UTC
I've never used CO2 tanks to power my airbrush but I know it can be done. A friend of mine who is a graphic artist used a CO2 tank back in the 90's. He got it from the local supplier along with a regulator that could dial down to a pressure that worked for his purposes. The supplier would replace the tank whenever it was emptied. I would think an industrial gas supplier could answer the question.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 01:20 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Why? Why do you want to do this?
What advantages would it have compared to an ordinary compressor?

The tank on my compressor has rusted through so I am replacing it with two fire extinguishers (the dry powder type). They are usually filled to twice the pressure that my compressor can deliver so there is plenty safety margin. The will hold enough air to get me through a few painting sessions before the compressor needs to start again.
/Robin



The biggest advantage of using a nitrogen tank is the complete lack of water in the air. Any one that has ever had water get into their paint understands the pain that it can be. Other than that the lack of noise is a plus. If you live in an apartment running a compressor late at night or early in the morning is not a good idea.



The noise problem can be handled in two ways:
1. Get a "silent" compressor, it makes as much noise as a refrigerator. I can still get startled when I'm totally concentrated and the only noise is the slight hissing from the airbrush and then the compressor starts.
These compressors are rather expensive but I wonder how many refills of that gas bottle it takes to pay for the more expensive compressor.

2. Get a noisy compressor with a large tank, fill the tank when the noise is not a problem. Turn of the power and use the air in the tank to airbrush during the silent hours.

The condensation problem is more difficult to get past.
In my experience the water settled in the tank, never a drop in the oil/water trap. Humidity is usually not an issue in my part of the world though.
/ Robin
JohnTapsell
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Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 06:01 PM UTC
Using a static tank has a number of advantages - it's silent, it sits comfortably in a corner of the workshop, there are no water contamination issues and single fill of the tank will last a year or more (dependent on how much spraying you do).

There is an initial outlay for the first tank and regulator but after that you can swap out the empty for a new one, or get your tank refilled.

I'm looking at swapping to a CO2 tank next year when I get a new spraying area set up. A number of friends have moved over to this option in recent years so I'll pick their brains when the time comes to make the swap.

Link to an FSM forum discussion:
http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/tools_techniques_and_reference_materials/f/18/t/7055.aspx

Regards,
John
Robbd01
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Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 08:13 PM UTC
Begin
Wait a gosh darn minute. You cannot use CO2. You will cause global warming! Destroy us all! We are already doomed. Norway is pumping the stuff into caves(figure they would want global warming considering their location). The US has left the Kyoto accords. Everyone panic... How can you justify your battery powered car when you are in your man cave spraying CO2 everywhere?
End

Actually I have a nice quiet Badger compressor with a tank that does very well. I thought about using a tank awhile back just because of $$$ though CO2/Nitrogen really was not considered since down here in the US southwest (if you ask me global warming has been here for thousands of years) I don't have a moisture problem. Only thing is I would have the same issue as I do with my gas grill in that halfway through session (or grill), I will run out of air (in the case of my grill propane). So in the end, I chose the compressor/tank. It was around $200 a few years back. I figured ok so I will skip one or two Wingnut Wing kits for a compressor.

Cheers and happy black Friday


Scarred
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Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 09:03 PM UTC
Why bother converting it at all? Unless you're running pure O2, your breathing air in your scuba tank would be just like the air in coming out of a compressor, just drier. Which is the only real advantage to tanked gasses besides noise control. The only thing you would need to adapt is your regulator. You airbush isn't going to mind. I used to use spare tires to airbrush with, the air smelled like rubber but the paint went down just fine. If you want to go the N2 route, I'd just pick up a tank at a welding supply shop, buy a regulator that way you don't compromise safety and I don't believe you would be able to find anyone willing to fill a modified, jury rigged tank.

drabslab
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Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 09:36 PM UTC
I considered doing the same. The only thing you need in addition to the tank is a pressure release valve able to reduce the pressure in your tank, to about 30 psi. Then you need a small second tank, strong enough to hold air at 30 psi. I advise getting a tank that can handle much more as a precaution. Then you need a second valve reducing the 20 psi to whatever you use for airbrushing.


All together, it is very tempting as it looks as if you get your pressure for free. However you will find out that an air brush compressor is cheaper and equally important safer
MLD
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Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 09:50 PM UTC
I don't know a damn thing about converting a scuba tank, sorry. But I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night and have been running a CO2 setup for the past 16yrs.

I got my 20lb tank from a local welding gas supplier here in the NE. I 'bought' a tank, but when I take it in for refills (all THREE times in the last 16yrs) they just swap it out for a full one, so 'my' tank is the one in the house, not that one particular tank. Refills run about $30 these days. There is a little more paperwork becasue of the beer/soda use of these tanks, but nothing to worry about.

I have a cheap dual gauge regulator, one gauge for tank pressure one for line pressure. In all honesty the tank pressure needle does not move until 'empty'.

There is some loss through the regulator if the tank is 'on' and the regulator is 'off' (reason for my last refill) but with both off, it lasts FOREVER!

I did have to source one fitting for connecting the regulator to the airbrush hose back in the day, but even that was pretty easy.


Try a welding gas supply store and ask about a tank for airbrushing purposes. They can set you up with very little 'side-eye'..
hope this helps
Mike
Scarred
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Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 10:01 PM UTC
I run a automotive style compressor I think its 30 litre tank that will hit 200psi. Below 60psi the regulator isn't accurrate so I set the air pressure on thr tank end to 90-100psi, mount the water trap, connect 50 feet of hose to the trap outlet and connect to another trap inlet that feed my airbrush regulator that works great at lower pressure. The pressure range is 5 to 100 psi and very controllable at lower pressure. I shoot rangeing from 5psi to 20-24psi
thathaway3
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Posted: Thursday, November 23, 2017 - 10:35 PM UTC
Another alternative is to make your own storage tank. I made one using about 4 feet of 6" PVC pipe which is capped off on both ends. I mounted it to the wall in my basement with some brackets secured to the wall.

On the bottom I have a petcock drain valve to allow water to drain and flush out, and on the top I have a pressure gauge which measures tank pressure.

On either side at the top I have pipes with quick connect air fittings installed.

On the supply side I start my compressor and then connect it with standard air hose to the fitting. On the other side I have a regulator with another pressure gauge which measures line pressure. I have my regular braided airbrush hose connected to the air hose with about 7-8 feet so I have plenty of room to work at my spray box.

The compressor will usually fill the tank to about 40-44 psi in about 5 min, and the regulator gives me whatever spray pressure I want, with no moisture or pulsing. I usually keep the compressor running while I work, but I'm sure I could shut it off and work for a good 10-15 min before I'd need to re-start. (I HAVE noticed that the tank will NOT hold a steady pressure for more than about 20 min with the compressor off, so clearly it's not TOTALLY sealed.)

You can find everything you need at Home Depot and Graingers. Not the CHEAPEST solution, but it works great.
babaoriley
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Posted: Friday, November 24, 2017 - 12:43 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Why bother converting it at all? Unless you're running pure O2, your breathing air in your scuba tank would be just like the air in coming out of a compressor, just drier. Which is the only real advantage to tanked gasses besides noise control. The only thing you would need to adapt is your regulator. You airbush isn't going to mind. I used to use spare tires to airbrush with, the air smelled like rubber but the paint went down just fine. If you want to go the N2 route, I'd just pick up a tank at a welding supply shop, buy a regulator that way you don't compromise safety and I don't believe you would be able to find anyone willing to fill a modified, jury rigged tank.

Liability is a huge issue for companies supplying compressed gasses, and when you see the home-made accidents-waiting to-happen that some folks rig up you can understand why most companies will refuse to touch any compressed gas system modified by the consumer. I once had to tell a guy trying to save a few dollars that no, he couldn't use the parts he got at Home Depot to rig up his own CO2 fill station as the CO2 would generate pressures from 750 psi all the way up to 3000 psi (where the burst disc would pop). This guy wanted to use parts meant to plumb a refrigerator ice maker to handle CO2....

The original poster could use his SCUBA tanks to fill a small paintball compressed air system for a hundred bucks including the fill adapter, maybe a bit more if he needs a second regulator. On the other hand he can get an airbrush compressor with a reserve tank for about a hundred bucks from Amazon. All things considered the compressor makes more sense as it is easier, cheaper and safer.
Headhunter506
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Posted: Friday, November 24, 2017 - 02:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Why? Why do you want to do this?
What advantages would it have compared to an ordinary compressor?

The tank on my compressor has rusted through so I am replacing it with two fire extinguishers (the dry powder type). They are usually filled to twice the pressure that my compressor can deliver so there is plenty safety margin. The will hold enough air to get me through a few painting sessions before the compressor needs to start again.
/Robin



Two major advantages. Aside from making no noise, using CO2 means no need for a moisture trap. Being an apartment dweller, the lack of compressor noise is important. With all of the building construction taking place on my block, and the fact that it's an alternate route for truck traffic, less noise is always welcome. Attaching a regulator, as Mike D. pointed out, isn't a big deal, either. It costs me 22 bucks for a 20 lb. tank at the welding gas joint in my neighborhood. That sure beats paying $160 or more for the equivalent amount of canned propellant.
Vicious
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Posted: Friday, November 24, 2017 - 03:25 AM UTC
I have a compressor like that of the link here below, different color and brand but it is identical, it costs a little, it works fine and above all it is silent, pritty much like a fridge, to make it even silent I added very thick felt and rubber feet so as to completely undo the vibrations, the compressor is set to 40psi with a Braided Air Hose to another Regulator with Gauge & Water Trap Filter on my work table, I changed the gauge by putting one in it to a maximum of 60psi so I can have a very fine adjustment, in total I will spend up to $ 150

http://www.tcpglobal.com/MASTC-40T_4.html
salt6
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Posted: Friday, November 24, 2017 - 04:07 AM UTC
I have a large tank for my welder and to purchase that tank outright was about $400. You could get a smaller tank for less. I pay around $30 to rent the tank each year.
Scarred
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Posted: Friday, November 24, 2017 - 08:44 AM UTC
If you can get a regulator for the scuba tank that will connect to a airbrush set up, you can fill a tank with dry air at a dive shop for under $10. Don't know how long that will last airbrushing tho be interesting to find out.
Leonverdonschot
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Posted: Friday, November 24, 2017 - 12:47 PM UTC
I use a co2 system in my fishtank gor plant growth. Maybe you can look in a petstore for such kind of system. If you have a cillinder with a big cappacity it would be expencive though. Those bottles don't come cheap. I know i will stick to my compressor
TopSmith
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Posted: Friday, November 24, 2017 - 10:26 PM UTC
I use a 20 lbs CO2 cylinder for all my airbrush work. CO2 has about 850 psi and nitrogen upwards of almost 3000 Psi in the cylinder. Your equipment needs to be certified. I use a regulator for nitrogen(no particular reason other than I already had it). I just swap out my cylinder when it runs low. I get a LOT of use for my refill. I can easily adjust my PSI for airbrushing, no problems.The compressor guys say pay the money and get a good compressor. The same goes for a compressed gas system. Go to a compressed gas company and buy what you need. If you already know, you could look on Offer Up or some other on line resale and you can get some good used equipment buys, I did.

So Why use CO2? CO2 is a dry gas so there are no water/oil issues. CO2 is silent so you will never have a problem with noise and vibrations. There are no power requirements. It is very portable. I have had 100% reliability over the last 19 years. I had a Badger compressor prior to that and had it long enough to replace the diaphragm twice. I am so much happier with the CO2 cylinder. People who have compressors say why change. People with cylinders say they won't go back.
Headhunter506
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Posted: Saturday, November 25, 2017 - 12:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I use a 20 lbs CO2 cylinder for all my airbrush work. CO2 has about 850 psi and nitrogen upwards of almost 3000 Psi in the cylinder. Your equipment needs to be certified. I use a regulator for nitrogen(no particular reason other than I already had it). I just swap out my cylinder when it runs low. I get a LOT of use for my refill. I can easily adjust my PSI for airbrushing, no problems.The compressor guys say pay the money and get a good compressor. The same goes for a compressed gas system. Go to a compressed gas company and buy what you need. If you already know, you could look on Offer Up or some other on line resale and you can get some good used equipment buys, I did.

So Why use CO2? CO2 is a dry gas so there are no water/oil issues. CO2 is silent so you will never have a problem with noise and vibrations. There are no power requirements. It is very portable. I have had 100% reliability over the last 19 years. I had a Badger compressor prior to that and had it long enough to replace the diaphragm twice. I am so much happier with the CO2 cylinder. People who have compressors say why change. People with cylinders say they won't go back.



Bada-bing, bada-boom. Well said (actually, well written. )and spot on.
120mmSniper
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Posted: Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 10:49 AM UTC
I dug out my old compressor and it doesn't work. I don't know what's wrong with it. I bought a nitrogen tank regulator that goes from 0-60psi. One problem; I'm not sure what threads are on the compressor end of the hose. I have Iwata and Paasche. I think the Iwata is 1/4" BSP. I don't know what the Paasche is. I know the regulator has female 1/4" NPT threads. I just need to go from that to the *#@! hose.

I'll report back when I get it all figured out.
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