Figures
Military figures of all shapes and sizes.
The Wehrmacht's Most Monstrous Unit
long_tom
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Posted: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 - 05:27 AM UTC
While there are admirers of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao Zedong, Pol Pot was so horrible that he had won no admirers of any ideology:
https://ozyandmillie.org/1998/05/10/ozy-and-millie-12/

The cartoonist being a yellow-dog Democrat BTW.
joepanzer
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Posted: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 - 06:40 AM UTC
You ever see the people at certain "rallies" here at home and they have that same crazy look in their eyes as they did in 30's Germany?

Demagogues and Propaganda can really screw a place up.
long_tom
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Posted: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 - 09:08 AM UTC
Going back to the original topic, I read that the crossed rifle collar patches were definitely made and used. I've found a variety of SS runes and insignia from Eduard photo etch, and some decals from Peddinghaus, but is there anybody who makes such insignia, or is the idea too obscure?
joepanzer
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Posted: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 - 06:43 PM UTC
Wikipedia shows 2 crossed potato mashers?
Bravo1102
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Posted: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 - 07:17 PM UTC
I have seen the insignia in 1/6th scale as there are some very obscure SS units represented by aftermarket insignia companies. But not in 1/35 As it is too obscure and also hard to discern in smaller scales? So far we've only gotten pretty generic insignia not the obscure stuff.
johhar
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Posted: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 - 10:30 PM UTC
According to the internet (even with its inaccuracies and half-half-truths) Dirlewanger's acts would, if committed in America today, earn him status as a sex offender of the highest level. And the worst of his command like an assortment of Criminal Minds UnSubs and Law & Order SVU Perps. Personally, I can't imagine wanting to model them.
Vierville
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Posted: Thursday, February 22, 2018 - 03:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

According to the internet (even with its inaccuracies and half-half-truths) Dirlewanger's acts would, if committed in America today, earn him status as a sex offender of the highest level. And the worst of his command like an assortment of Criminal Minds UnSubs and Law & Order SVU Perps. Personally, I can't imagine wanting to model them.



I can understand your not wanting to model soldiers from this unit but I think that that is a matter of personal choice.

If someone does want to model them, or any other 'controvercial' unit for that matter, I certainly wouldn't judge them.

Most model makers build models for the historical interest that the subject holds, be that positive or negative in connotation. I personally have modelled many waffen SS units (2nd SS, 12th SS, 17th SS)-all of whom committed documented atrocities.I've also modelled many American units (101st Airborne, 82nd Airborne, 4th inf., 29th inf, Rangers etc)- many of whom committed equally violent or brutal acts against soldiers who had surrendered or indeed civillians (on D-Day let us not forget the U.S. paratroopers' official order to take no prisoners).

Similar stories are to be found relating to British soldiers.

War is not a pleasant business. People get killed. Often brutally. Civillians inevitably get killed too whether intentionally or as so called 'collateral damage'. When these civillians are part of a 'resistance' or 'partisan' force then that is even more understandable as they are acting as combattants. Many American soldiers in Normandy even reported having to shoot at French civillians who were shooting at them.

These things happen in war. I think people tend to romanticise war but in reality war is a filthy, gritty, unpleasant, sickening thing that often deeply scars the participants for life and only the narrative written by the victors stands as a lasting record of what happened (which usually accentuates the bad deeds of the losing side while exonerating or ignoring those of the winning side).

While the 36th SS was known as a particularly nasty unit, they were operating within the wider context of a very filthy war and I can certainly see the interest someone might have in modelling soldiers from this unit purely based on the historical events they were involved in (Warsaw uprising etc).
maartenboersma
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Posted: Thursday, February 22, 2018 - 03:29 AM UTC
Here you can see the two crossed rifles and stick grenade.



johhar
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Posted: Thursday, February 22, 2018 - 03:31 AM UTC
Not judging. Just my personal non-preference.
long_tom
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Posted: Thursday, February 22, 2018 - 05:21 AM UTC
An interesting subject for discussion.

Sadly though, they can be modelled, but without the collar patches there is no way to identify this unit specifically so that the viewer would know who they were. Not like, say, Florian Geyer or Handschar divisions with their distinctive and readily available uniform items. (As for the latter, I wonder what the Bosnians themselves think of that unit, whether they are proud or ashamed of them. Like the Croatians with Ustasha.)
HansBouwmeester
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Namibia
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Posted: Thursday, February 22, 2018 - 03:30 PM UTC
What a great discussion this is . Remindes me of the comments on my "Parade" diorama I posted here (and which was recently bought by a museum since history is history, no matter what ).
The reason most militaria collectors (I used to own a large collection WW2 German militaria) collect German militaria is that their uniforms and decorations were very impressive.
I guess the same counts for scale-modelling but what the hell, these days all (except what's allowed by the left-site) is unacceptabel, racist and right-wing extremism. A bit like "Animal farms Four Legs Good, Two Legs Bad"
Today the yearly "cowboys-and-indians" event for children in Utrecht was cancelled due to left-wing pressure. Cowboys are mass-murderers and it's incorrect to dress up like an indian because it's not done to "steal their culture".
So for all US forum members who are shocked about this subject, what did your great great grandfather do when "the west was won"..... 😂😂
I'm very scared since I recently finished a "US-Indian-War-Cavelry diorama.
I guess it's best to secure my windows, get my car in a garage or flee the country.
In short "the assylum has been taken over by the patients". Even here, on Armorama
Bravo1102
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Posted: Thursday, February 22, 2018 - 04:39 PM UTC
The crossed rifles almost looks like the US infantry branch insignia which are two Springfield rifled muskets.

Going back to at least the Franco-Prussian War German units reacted violently to any civilian resistance to their Military occupation. Then there was the rape of Belgium. For decades it was dismissed as propaganda when new research of primary accounts shows it really happened in 1914. The Germans actually used The Geneva Convention to excuse it. The Geneva Convention as originally drafted treated non uniformed partisans (civilians resisting against an invading military) as criminals to be summarily executed. Belgian civilians allegedly shot at German troops.

And then there was the war that gave us the term "guerrilla" a century earlier; the Spanish resistance to the French during the Napoleonic Wars. There was also the partisan wars during the American Revolution that recent reevalutions of primary sources reveal to have been far more brutal than commonly thought(though usually Loyalist versus Patriot, though the British soldier was an accomplished pillager and rapist)

After the horrors of the Thirty Years War in the 17th century efforts were made to spare populations such horror. But civilians taking up arms (unless recognized military units like organized militias) was to result in all accepted rules of sparing civilians being suspended.

In the 20th Century we tend to only look at recent history when in fact civilized people's have been brutal since time immemorial. (Barbarian is an ethnic slur from the Greeks designating any speaker of the one pure language Greek We descendents of "barbarian" people's who have studied previous cultures feel it's a sign of ignorance of the contributions of various groups. Remember to an ignorant Greek of Alexander's army the great culture of Persia was barbarian for their language as well as the barbaric practice of wearing pants)
HansBouwmeester
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Namibia
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Posted: Thursday, February 22, 2018 - 05:12 PM UTC
Hear hear!! Mr.Bravo, I salute you for your, 1000% correct, comment.
The biggest problem these days is the complete lack of historic knowledge by those who, in spite of that lack, feel intitled to have an opinion.
I have a "MyLittlePony"-generation niece that went to Hiroshima. She was shocked by what she saw, almost broke down in tears for those poor Japanese victems and cursed the massmurdering Americans who dropped the bom.
I asked her if she had any idea what made the Americans do that and what the Japs did to let it get that far......she didn't......but wow, did she have an opinion!!
long_tom
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Posted: Thursday, February 22, 2018 - 05:34 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hear hear!! Mr.Bravo, I sa.ute you for your, 1000% correct, comment.
The biggest problem these days is the complete lack of historic knowledge by those you, in spite of that lack, feel intitled to have an opinion.
I have a "MyLittlePony"-generation niece that went to Hiroshima. She was shocked by what she saw, almost broke down in tears for those poor Japanese victems and cursed the massmurdering Americans who dropped the bom.
I asked her if she had any idea what made the Americans do that and what the Japs did to let it get that far......she didn't......but wow, did she have an opinion!!

And the Japanese aren't exactly popular in the other Asian nations either.
Namabiiru
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MODEL SHIPWRIGHTS
#399
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Posted: Thursday, February 22, 2018 - 05:37 PM UTC
Interesting discussion for what started as a simple question about insignia.

The fact is war--all war--is brutal, ugly, and a source of human suffering. We don't accuse all plastic modelers of glorifying war simply because they choose to recreate in miniature the men and machines of war, so it seems like it would be rather hypocritical to cast aspersions on someone who chose model a particular unit. We all have our own ideas of what we find to be tasteful or distasteful, but please leave the personal criticism at the door. If you have useful information to help answer the question, or if you wish to provide interesting contextual and historical information, that's great; but if you just want to judge, it's probably not needed.

My $0.02...

Bravo1102
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Posted: Thursday, February 22, 2018 - 06:22 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Here you can see the two crossed rifles and stick grenade.





The resemblance of that to an officer's US Infantry branch badge suggests another source for it for a figure. It almost looks the right size and shape for the US Army branch insignia. So one could use photoetch US insignia for it?
Removed by original poster on 02/23/18 - 15:35:06 (GMT).
long_tom
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Posted: Thursday, February 22, 2018 - 08:37 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Here you can see the two crossed rifles and stick grenade.





The resemblance of that to an officer's US Infantry branch badge suggests another source for it for a figure. It almost looks the right size and shape for the US Army branch insignia. So one could use photoetch US insignia for it?


Problems: a stick grenade was present too, certainly not used by any US military, plus the thing would have to be pretty small-it's a collar patch.
Tojo72
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Posted: Thursday, February 22, 2018 - 09:01 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The crossed rifles almost looks like the US infantry branch insignia which are two Springfield rifled muskets.

Going back to at least the Franco-Prussian War German units reacted violently to any civilian resistance to their Military occupation. Then there was the rape of Belgium. For decades it was dismissed as propaganda when new research of primary accounts shows it really happened in 1914. The Germans actually used The Geneva Convention to excuse it. The Geneva Convention as originally drafted treated non uniformed partisans (civilians resisting against an invading military) as criminals to be summarily executed. Belgian civilians allegedly shot at German troops.

And then there was the war that gave us the term "guerrilla" a century earlier; the Spanish resistance to the French during the Napoleonic Wars. There was also the partisan wars during the American Revolution that recent reevalutions of primary sources reveal to have been far more brutal than commonly thought(though usually Loyalist versus Patriot, though the British soldier was an accomplished pillager and rapist)

After the horrors of the Thirty Years War in the 17th century efforts were made to spare populations such horror. But civilians taking up arms (unless recognized military units like organized militias) was to result in all accepted rules of sparing civilians being suspended.

In the 20th Century we tend to only look at recent history when in fact civilized people's have been brutal since time immemorial. (Barbarian is an ethnic slur from the Greeks designating any speaker of the one pure language Greek We descendents of "barbarian" people's who have studied previous cultures feel it's a sign of ignorance of the contributions of various groups. Remember to an ignorant Greek of Alexander's army the great culture of Persia was barbarian for their language as well as the barbaric practice of wearing pants)



Speaking about brutality,I read a great book called The Spanish Holocaust,it detailed the horrific atrocities on both sides during the Spanish Civil War,a real eye opener.
Bravo1102
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Posted: Thursday, February 22, 2018 - 09:30 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Here you can see the two crossed rifles and stick grenade.





The resemblance of that to an officer's US Infantry branch badge suggests another source for it for a figure. It almost looks the right size and shape for the US Army branch insignia. So one could use photoetch US insignia for it?


Problems: a stick grenade was present too, certainly not used by any US military, plus the thing would have to be pretty small-it's a collar patch.


Army officers wear it on their collars
One side is the rank, the other is branch insignia? Look at the photo and compare it to the one worn on the collar of an infantry officer. That's what I'm referring to. I've seen photoetch US officer insignia and it is close enough to the size of that patch to work.

Having the crossed rifles would be a solution to two thirds of the insignia. An HO scale hand grenade might be the right size for the grenade.
long_tom
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Posted: Friday, February 23, 2018 - 02:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Here you can see the two crossed rifles and stick grenade.





The resemblance of that to an officer's US Infantry branch badge suggests another source for it for a figure. It almost looks the right size and shape for the US Army branch insignia. So one could use photoetch US insignia for it?


Problems: a stick grenade was present too, certainly not used by any US military, plus the thing would have to be pretty small-it's a collar patch.


Army officers wear it on their collars
One side is the rank, the other is branch insignia? Look at the photo and compare it to the one worn on the collar of an infantry officer. That's what I'm referring to. I've seen photoetch US officer insignia and it is close enough to the size of that patch to work.

Having the crossed rifles would be a solution to two thirds of the insignia. An HO scale hand grenade might be the right size for the grenade.


Whoo! Beyond my ability to dare attempt, unless somebody else wants a go.
PzDave
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Posted: Friday, February 23, 2018 - 05:03 AM UTC
When the Russians captured the Kaminski Brigade" at the end of the war the Russian Army unit who captured them contacted their HQ. The reply was to kill them all--on the spot. The SS unit was that bad.
steviecee
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Posted: Friday, February 23, 2018 - 07:00 AM UTC
The most complete book about the atrocities perpetrated by both sides on the Eastern front is called "Bloodlands" It Starts pre-war
jasegreene
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Posted: Friday, February 23, 2018 - 10:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

After reading an Osprey book about the Waffen-SS, I read a section talking about this unit, and Wikipedia told me more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/36th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS

Question: how were their uniforms like? I have Peddinghaus decals which have several armbands with the commander's name.




Just got finished read about this unit and they sound more like a real life version "Suicide Squad".You had every psycho,sicko and worthless garbage serving in this unit to go out to commit crimes they could commit.


adamant
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Posted: Friday, February 23, 2018 - 12:53 PM UTC
"Those who fail to heed the lessons of the past are bound to repeat them" or words to that effect! I for one hope that we collectively never allow these types any place in our societies ever again! History is full of examples of these cowardly scum!