login   |    register
Armor/AFV: Axis - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Axis forces during World War II.
Hosted by Darren Baker
German weapon designation
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,122 posts
Armorama: 4,546 posts
Posted: Monday, May 14, 2018 - 07:20 PM UTC
I understand the difference between the German abbreviations of PAK and KwK, but I have a question on the numerical designations. The JagdTiger has a PAK 80/L 55 gun. Translated: Panzer Abwehr Kanone (literally-- tank defense cannon) what does the 80 designate? Usually it is the year of acceptance (e.g. PAK 39) The "L" means length (German: Lange with two dots over the "A")

Thanks
DJ
Frenchy
Visit this Community
Rhone, France
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 11,290 posts
Armorama: 11,088 posts
Posted: Monday, May 14, 2018 - 07:52 PM UTC
You're not the only one to ask

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=59792

H.P.
Bravo1102
Visit this Community
New Jersey, United States
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,178 posts
Armorama: 1,873 posts
Posted: Monday, May 14, 2018 - 08:27 PM UTC
Use Occam's razor. What is a simple answer? The Germans designed a lot of guns after 1939 and they couldn't all be Pak 42-44-45 so maybe a couple of larger numbers were used to clear up nomenclature confusion.

Germans are into precision unlike the US Army with the M3 halftracks, light tank, medium tank and submachine gun.

A German general said war is chaos and the reason Americans are so good at is because Americans practice chaos on a great scale.
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,122 posts
Armorama: 4,546 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 - 12:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Use Occam's razor. What is a simple answer? The Germans designed a lot of guns after 1939 and they couldn't all be Pak 42-44-45 so maybe a couple of larger numbers were used to clear up nomenclature confusion.

Germans are into precision unlike the US Army with the M3 halftracks, light tank, medium tank and submachine gun.

A German general said war is chaos and the reason Americans are so good at is because Americans practice chaos on a great scale.



Ok, so is that why they numbered it 80?
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,122 posts
Armorama: 4,546 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 - 12:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

You're not the only one to ask

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=59792

H.P.



Henri--- I think this is the correct answer from the link you provided:

"Thank you very very much Claus!
I've got my answer: this 80 has no signification or, at least, not the regular designation for guns.
Sorry that you're confusing too!"

I thank you for your assistance
DJ
RLlockie
Visit this Community
United Kingdom
Joined: September 06, 2013
KitMaker: 827 posts
Armorama: 686 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 - 09:23 PM UTC
The length in calibres refers to the bore, not to the barrel as a whole. It is therefore of limited use to a modeller buyind that if a tank is upgraded to an L/60 version of the same calibre L/42 weapon, it tells you how much longer the barrel is (unless one had a muzzle brake of course). For a 5cm weapon, that would be 5 x (60 - 42) = 90cm.
beachbm2
Visit this Community
United States
Joined: December 21, 2002
KitMaker: 392 posts
Armorama: 150 posts
Posted: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 - 10:51 PM UTC
5cm X 60 is much more than 90 cm it is 300 5cm x 10 is 50 X6 =300
RLlockie
Visit this Community
United Kingdom
Joined: September 06, 2013
KitMaker: 827 posts
Armorama: 686 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 - 02:16 AM UTC
Can’t fault your maths there but it doesn’t actually contradict mine.
petbat
Visit this Community
Queensland, Australia
Joined: August 06, 2005
KitMaker: 1,219 posts
Armorama: 1,186 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 - 02:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

5cm X 60 is much more than 90 cm it is 300 5cm x 10 is 50 X6 =300



What Robert means is the difference in length between L/60 and L/42

as you say, 5cm x 10 is 50 X6 =300

but then Robert said to take away 5cm x 42 = 210

so the difference in length between the two is
300 - 210 = 90.... as he stated


urumomo
Visit this Community
Texas, United States
Joined: August 22, 2013
KitMaker: 675 posts
Armorama: 667 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 - 02:25 AM UTC
He's talking about the difference in length .
60-42 calibers
18 times 5 = 90 cm difference in length .

Spielberger only says the gun's name was changed to the 80 , but not why .
I imagine it's like ASTM #'s ,, administrative - too many guns with '43 & '44 ?

EDIT -- I see Peter was typing at the same time !
Cheers
wedgetail53
Visit this Community
Queensland, Australia
Joined: October 02, 2008
KitMaker: 619 posts
Armorama: 590 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 - 03:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Germans are into precision unlike the US Army with the M3 halftracks, light tank, medium tank and submachine gun.



Don't forget the M3 trench knife, Steve!

Regards

Rob
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,122 posts
Armorama: 4,546 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 - 05:05 AM UTC

Quoted Text

He's talking about the difference in length .
60-42 calibers
18 times 5 = 90 cm difference in length .

Spielberger only says the gun's name was changed to the 80 , but not why .
I imagine it's like ASTM #'s ,, administrative - too many guns with '43 & '44 ?

EDIT -- I see Peter was typing at the same time !
Cheers



So, do you agree the number "80" is basically just a sequence number without a particular meaning such as the found in, for example, the PAK 40?
thanks
DJ
urumomo
Visit this Community
Texas, United States
Joined: August 22, 2013
KitMaker: 675 posts
Armorama: 667 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 - 05:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text


So, do you agree the number "80" is basically just a sequence number without a particular meaning such as the found in, for example, the PAK 40?
thanks
DJ



I can only guess .
I couldn't find any specific info and nothing in the specifications of the gun or it's ammunition appear to lend themselves to using the " 80 "
They were probably just reclassifying their ordnance . ,, similar to reclassifying the future panzers in the " E " series etc .
The older classifications were probably becoming confusing even for them .

... the overall length is 8000 mm , maybe that's it ? It's an 80 decimeter gun ? Could be nouveau method .
I was assuming they were reclassifying them around their applications and subsequent mounting configurations . IDK
Headhunter506
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: December 01, 2007
KitMaker: 1,463 posts
Armorama: 1,407 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 17, 2018 - 12:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The length in calibres refers to the bore, not to the barrel as a whole. It is therefore of limited use to a modeller buyind that if a tank is upgraded to an L/60 version of the same calibre L/42 weapon, it tells you how much longer the barrel is (unless one had a muzzle brake of course). For a 5cm weapon, that would be 5 x (60 - 42) = 90cm.



The length of a gun barrel, in calibers, is derived by dividing the length measured from breech to muzzle (the muzzle brake doesn't factor in to the length because it is not an integral part of the barrel) by the bore diameter. For example, the 75mm KwK 42 L/70, used on the Panther, had a barrel length of 5250mm. 5250/75=70. 70 is the "L" in the designation.

Also, the German method of equipment designation, contrary to what some might be led to believe, was logically planned and applied. Wanna know why the 128mm PaK 80 L/55 was designated as it was? To whit:


Quoted Text

As is common at this time, this weapon underwent several name changes. At various times it was known as K 44, Pak 44, Kanone 81, Pak 80 and Pjk 80.

Equipment numbered in the 8x range were temporary items usually issued in small numbers and not regarded as standard issue service weapons. Hence Pak 80 and Pjk 80 were temporary names, as were K81/x.[/i][/b]

Had this equipment been accepted into full service, it would have had a Pak 4x designation attached. The only difference between the Pak 44 and the K 44 was the mode of operation—the weapon itself was identical.

210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,122 posts
Armorama: 4,546 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 17, 2018 - 03:01 AM UTC
Joseph-- a limited production weapon...that makes all the sense in the world!
Thanks
DJ