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Dragon Downsizes
retiredyank
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Posted: Thursday, December 13, 2018 - 10:18 AM UTC
Just received Dragon's update. It appears that they are downscaling their popular kits to 144. Is this an attempt to enter the tabletop gaming world? We shall see.
brekinapez
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Posted: Thursday, December 13, 2018 - 11:17 AM UTC
Hey, here's a better idea: fix the current issues with overpricing compared to other companies, fix known problems with existing kits, put Magic Tracks back in, and stop reissuing the same vehicles over and over.
Biggles2
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Posted: Thursday, December 13, 2018 - 11:58 AM UTC
Dragon used to have a line called "Panzer Korps" in 1/144. Their "Leopold" rail gun was particularly impressive. Looks like Dragon is just re-issuing these kits again - same old, same old!

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Posted: Thursday, December 13, 2018 - 12:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Dragon..."Leopold" rail gun was particularly impressive.



Yes, I bought an assembled & painted display one at Aberdeen Proving Ground back in 2004. Impressive model!
retiredyank
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Posted: Thursday, December 13, 2018 - 01:10 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Dragon used to have a line called "Panzer Korps" in 1/144. Their "Leopold" rail gun was particularly impressive. Looks like Dragon is just re-issuing these kits again - same old, same old!




They claim this is a new venture.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Thursday, December 13, 2018 - 06:08 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Dragon used to have a line called "Panzer Korps" in 1/144. Their "Leopold" rail gun was particularly impressive. Looks like Dragon is just re-issuing these kits again - same old, same old!




They claim this is a new venture.



Maybe theay are re-tasking the Black Label crew .....
Bravo1102
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Posted: Thursday, December 13, 2018 - 09:14 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Dragon used to have a line called "Panzer Korps" in 1/144. Their "Leopold" rail gun was particularly impressive. Looks like Dragon is just re-issuing these kits again - same old, same old!




They claim this is a new venture.


New venture from recycled parts. Probably the same molds and subjects presented in a new way.

I am very cynical when it comes to Dragon.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 03:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hey, here's a better idea: fix the current issues with overpricing compared to other companies, fix known problems with existing kits, put Magic Tracks back in, and stop reissuing the same vehicles over and over.



My guess is that they're not going to do that.

I don't understand the animosity toward DML. So they don't make what you want, to your desired detail and accuracy level, at the prices you want to pay. They have no obligation to do so, and you are not out any money for things they don't make and you don't buy. Why do you care?

KL
brekinapez
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 03:28 AM UTC
Where do you see any animosity? I was merely suggesting things they could better concentrate on rather than add more lines since they have been taking a lot of heat lately and are being surpassed by new companies.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 03:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Hey, here's a better idea: fix the current issues with overpricing compared to other companies, fix known problems with existing kits, put Magic Tracks back in, and stop reissuing the same vehicles over and over.



My guess is that they're not going to do that.

I don't understand the animosity toward DML. So they don't make what you want, to your desired detail and accuracy level, at the prices you want to pay. They have no obligation to do so, and you are not out any money for things they don't make and you don't buy. Why do you care?

KL



We are having a "conversation" originating from the question, rhetorical or not, in the original post.
All opinions expressed in those posts are the posters own and nobody else is under any obligation to buy into them. Some try to be humorous, none (at least so far) have been amorous towards DML.
Why do we care? Maybe to raise a small warning flag, maybe it could be called caveat emptor, to prevent others from getting too excited about the news from DML.
The days when a producer could control their image are past, nowadays consumers "spread the word".
Those who don't like the message are free to close their eyes and ears, nobody is forcing anyone to read any posts they don't like
A producer who tries to sell kits which deviate in a negative way from their previous quality standards should be called out. If they move the other way and improve their act they shall be applauded for it. For the sake of fairness if nothing else.
/ Robin

Biggles2
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 04:08 AM UTC
No real complaint from me either - just commenting that there's nothing "New" about a 1/144 scale line from Dragon. I bought several of these mini kits many years ago - two to a package, and surprisingly well detailed for such a small scale. They also include PE. As they are 1/4 the scale of 1/35 (approximately), they are useful in planning out 1/35th scale dio's. Hopefully they will expand the line this time with non-German vehicles!
iamheaminot
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 07:28 AM UTC
Robin that is the best comment i have seen on any site.
retiredyank
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 08:21 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Robin that is the best comment i have seen on any site.



Agreed.
panzerbob01
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 08:47 AM UTC
Don't buy what you don't WANT. Yes, I was a D fan for a decade - have a big stash of D''s mostly-great German stuff. But why does anyone expect ANY company to keep doing the same thing in the same way "forever"? D is a business. It's owners / managers / directors see possible other things and ways to do. The SUPPLY of fantastic model kits, and kit manufacturers, too, is exploding. Modelers have more choice then ever. Vote with your buying power! If the D is going a different direction, why carp about it? Just go to another company. I've moved along. So can you.
@Robin: w great respect; why "call them out"? They KNOW what they are doing. Our written / posted protests are largely irrelevant. The ONLY reason they would respond in your preferred way would be that they somehow came to believe that YOU (we modelers) know BETTER how they should run their future business then they do. Folks have carped for YEARS about things the D has done to diminish their lines and kits... to no avail yet. They KNOW what they are about, I think. Regardless of whether it displeased some of us old D fans or not!
Bob
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 09:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Don't buy what you don't WANT. Yes, I was a D fan for a decade - have a big stash of D''s mostly-great German stuff. But why does anyone expect ANY company to keep doing the same thing in the same way "forever"? D is a business. It's owners / managers / directors see possible other things and ways to do. The SUPPLY of fantastic model kits, and kit manufacturers, too, is exploding. Modelers have more choice then ever. Vote with your buying power! If the D is going a different direction, why carp about it? Just go to another company. I've moved along. So can you.
@Robin: w great respect; why "call them out"? They KNOW what they are doing. Our written / posted protests are largely irrelevant. The ONLY reason they would respond in your preferred way would be that they somehow came to believe that YOU (we modelers) know BETTER how they should run their future business then they do. Folks have carped for YEARS about things the D has done to diminish their lines and kits... to no avail yet. They KNOW what they are about, I think. Regardless of whether it displeased some of us old D fans or not!
Bob



Hi Bob,
I think we may have a small misunderstanding of my intention with those words.
What I meant to write was that a producer/vendor who is "misbehaving" should be named and shamed in public.
I am fully aware that they could not care less about any single customers voice. Now that anyone can reach out to a large group of other customers it is not a matter of one single customer any more. Sow one disappointed customer and harvest thousands, company managers might understand that.

I would have gone ahead and bought their M103 kit based on my previous knowledge about Dragon kits. Reviews and irritated customers here on this forum made me reconsider and spend my cash on something else.
The fact that I voted with my buying power means absolutely nothing to Dragon, if a hundred thousand customers voted with their wallets things might just possibly change.
If Dragon basically do not give a s**t about their share of the plastic model market then they can continue doing what they do.
If we continue carping about it then things might just possibly change even if the chances are very slim.
If we keep our mouths shut and sit on our hands then we can be absolutely certain that nothing will ever change.
Customers ganging up against producers/vendors is the only way to influence them.
If I know bad things about a vendor or producer and someone asks about that company I WILL carp about it. It is my way of trying to create leverage for my buying power.
One single kit not sold to me means absolutely nothing, one single unsold kit multiplied by a thousand potential buyers might possibly mean something.
In some cases it could also be: Go ahead and buy the kit, there is only a dozen of things to correct and here is the tweak list. I bought their MBT-70 since the faults/mistakes were manageable.
Most members of this forum know about Dragon but we get new members who haven't "suffered" the carping yet and sometimes we forget things.
/ Robin
brekinapez
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 09:55 AM UTC
You'd be surprised what combined voices can accomplish. Check the video game industry to see the effects of combined customer displeasure with the latest releases of Battlefield, Diablo, Fallout 76, etc. Similar things have happened with Star Wars (the poor box office of Solo was a result of fan displeasure with Last Jedi. Marvel's comic book division is suffering from fan reactions to identity politics being injected into story lines.

If enough people complain or vote with their wallets, Dragon will start to give a [auto-censored].
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 10:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Hey, here's a better idea: fix the current issues with overpricing compared to other companies, fix known problems with existing kits, put Magic Tracks back in, and stop reissuing the same vehicles over and over.



My guess is that they're not going to do that.

I don't understand the animosity toward DML. So they don't make what you want, to your desired detail and accuracy level, at the prices you want to pay. They have no obligation to do so, and you are not out any money for things they don't make and you don't buy. Why do you care?

KL




Why do we care? Maybe to raise a small warning flag, maybe it could be called caveat emptor, to prevent others from getting too excited about the news from DML.
The days when a producer could control their image are past, nowadays consumers "spread the word".
Those who don't like the message are free to close their eyes and ears, nobody is forcing anyone to read any posts they don't like
A producer who tries to sell kits which deviate in a negative way from their previous quality standards should be called out. If they move the other way and improve their act they shall be applauded for it. For the sake of fairness if nothing else.




Robin: Shell's original post (highlighted above) cannot be construed as a warning to anybody about anything. It is just another example of a "They announced X; they should release Y" post that we've seen many times.

KL
brekinapez
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 11:14 AM UTC
Well, people whined for years companies should release a new-tool Bergepanther (You know; the kit you kept claiming the Great Conspiracy of Manufacturers were not going to deliver.) instead of more Tigers and regular Panthers and look how that turned out.
panzerbob01
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 01:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text




Hi Bob,
I think we may have a small misunderstanding of my intention with those words.
What I meant to write was that a producer/vendor who is "misbehaving" should be named and shamed in public.
I am fully aware that they could not care less about any single customers voice. Now that anyone can reach out to a large group of other customers it is not a matter of one single customer any more. Sow one disappointed customer and harvest thousands, company managers might understand that.

I would have gone ahead and bought their M103 kit based on my previous knowledge about Dragon kits. Reviews and irritated customers here on this forum made me reconsider and spend my cash on something else.
The fact that I voted with my buying power means absolutely nothing to Dragon, if a hundred thousand customers voted with their wallets things might just possibly change.
If Dragon basically do not give a s**t about their share of the plastic model market then they can continue doing what they do.
If we continue carping about it then things might just possibly change even if the chances are very slim.
If we keep our mouths shut and sit on our hands then we can be absolutely certain that nothing will ever change.
Customers ganging up against producers/vendors is the only way to influence them.
If I know bad things about a vendor or producer and someone asks about that company I WILL carp about it. It is my way of trying to create leverage for my buying power.
One single kit not sold to me means absolutely nothing, one single unsold kit multiplied by a thousand potential buyers might possibly mean something.
In some cases it could also be: Go ahead and buy the kit, there is only a dozen of things to correct and here is the tweak list. I bought their MBT-70 since the faults/mistakes were manageable.
Most members of this forum know about Dragon but we get new members who haven't "suffered" the carping yet and sometimes we forget things.
/ Robin[/quote]

Robin; From your reply, I think that I fully understood what you were and are saying! What I am saying is... "WHY do you (or any other modeler) CARE what Dragon does?" Not to be disrespectful to you or to anyone else here, but it seems that some are somehow peeved or miffed that the D has shifted its attention and focus to stuff other than what they want to buy - and it seems somehow important to some that folks "should" be able to buy that subject FROM THE D - as if the D was somehow obligated to make what YOU want! Yeah, we seem to live in a weird "activist consumer group-gripe" world where folks think that its not only their "right" but maybe a sort of "holy duty" to try to force some specific company to make something that they want - even if there are plenty of actually as-good-as or even better alternative companies out there! I simply don't get it! Consider; I used to buy a LOT of German - most of the D's line, actually. While there are actually some German subjects (Bergepanthers, anyone?) I'm still interested in, D doesn't make them. Never did, probably never will. I'm in no way miffed with the D over this. Why should I be? There are simply better sources out there. I am now more interested in modern Russians and IDF stuff... Meng, Trumpeter, Takom, RPM, AFV-Club, MiniArt, among others well meet that "need". D doesn't and likely won't. No bother to me!

And NO, you don't really need a public outcry nor a "movement" to exert buying power. Folks who don't want D's now-lessened stuff won't buy it. That includes all modelers who actually look up kits and comments before they buy. Each of use won't buy 1. There are lots of us and thus lots of "not 1 bought". Nobody wanted Ford's Edsel... There wasn't any public outrage or group-gripe about it. People simply didn't buy them.

Activism is A-OK. But personally, I am much less interested and lazier then that, when it comes to the fading giant, D! In point of fact, whenever I see or hear "activism" and group-gripes rev'd up about such trivial commercial issues, I turn away. I've lived through way too many "let's link arms and all shout "NO! together" movements and events. Some, like movements against abuse and for people's rights, are GREAT (and done some myself). "Movements" and group-gripes against companies who don't make my desired product? No.

But, all that said, it IS a shame that a once-iconic model company has floated away into other stuff. I'm whimsical enough to say that, having loved much of what the D sold me. One might have thought that they would have been more interested in rising up and competing with these newer up-starts who are making and selling stellar stuff.

Cheers! Bob
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 04:21 PM UTC
To distill what Bob said: Why are you guys spending energy trying to convince Dragon to change their current directions and go back to their glory days? Why don't you spend that energy convincing some other company to do what you want?

KL
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 04:42 PM UTC

Quoted Text

You'd be surprised what combined voices can accomplish. Check the video game industry to see the effects of combined customer displeasure with the latest releases of Battlefield, Diablo, Fallout 76, etc. Similar things have happened with Star Wars (the poor box office of Solo was a result of fan displeasure with Last Jedi. Marvel's comic book division is suffering from fan reactions to identity politics being injected into story lines.

If enough people complain or vote with their wallets, Dragon will start to give a [auto-censored].



I'm surprised that people combined their voices to change the direction of a video game, a movie, or a comic book. Are they going to put "I got them to change the bogus rendering of the rifle grenade explosion in Call of Duty 23" on their tombstones? I wonder what those folks will do when the companies shut down those franchises because they are no longer profitable? Oh wait, I know: The same thing people do when a TV show is cancelled because of bad ratings. Start a campaign to *make* the owners sell it so somebody else can lose money on it for awhile.

I don't get trying to talk Dragon into saving themselves. Just get somebody else to make what you want.

KL
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 04:43 PM UTC

Quoted Text

. . . a new-tool Bergepanther (You know; the kit you kept claiming the Great Conspiracy of Manufacturers were not going to deliver.)



Fantastic.

KL
panzerbob01
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 06:42 PM UTC
The flurry of NEW Bergepanther kits (along with Panthers w interiors) is an interesting case in point for the notion that folks can gang up and force a company to do what they want...

People did indeed carp and cry for a new and modern-tech / standard Berge for years. But we had to wait until NEW kit manufacturers saw the potential market for that subject. The operative is NEW. No old mfgr was successfully coerced in any way to get onto that.

People carp about the D not doing what they want. The D hasn't changed its horse on hardly anything folks have carped about. DS tracks came in, and Magics mostly went away. Folks (me too! ) squealed and shrieked and posted. The DS stayed, and Magics went away (with a few exceptions). PE and extras were reduced and cut out. Folks shrieked and whined and moaned and carped and posted. PE hasn't made it back.

The D isn't listening, guys. If the D isn't selling what you want, just go elsewhere. That's the way the free market works!

I think I need one of those new RPM Russian T-80U kits!

Bob
retiredyank
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Posted: Friday, December 14, 2018 - 09:38 PM UTC

Quoted Text


I think I need one of those new RPM Russian T-80U kits!

Bob



That would be "RPG" Bob. Got one, in my stash.
U-mark
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Posted: Saturday, December 15, 2018 - 01:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The flurry of NEW Bergepanther kits (along with Panthers w interiors) is an interesting case in point for the notion that folks can gang up and force a company to do what they want...

People did indeed carp and cry for a new and modern-tech / standard Berge for years. But we had to wait until NEW kit manufacturers saw the potential market for that subject. The operative is NEW. No old mfgr was successfully coerced in any way to get onto that.

People carp about the D not doing what they want. The D hasn't changed its horse on hardly anything folks have carped about. DS tracks came in, and Magics mostly went away. Folks (me too! ) squealed and shrieked and posted. The DS stayed, and Magics went away (with a few exceptions). PE and extras were reduced and cut out. Folks shrieked and whined and moaned and carped and posted. PE hasn't made it back.

The D isn't listening, guys. If the D isn't selling what you want, just go elsewhere. That's the way the free market works!

I think I need one of those new RPM Russian T-80U kits!

Bob

Bob, I totally agree with you. Except for a couple of Academy's newer releases I haven't bought a kit from an "established" company for around 3 years. I've purchased more Meng kits then anything else. They, along with RFM, Takom, MiniArt, Amusing, etc. seem to not only listen to what we what we want, but also give us what we didn't know we needed. I just ordered a BUK SAM launcher that I didn't know i needed but just looked too cool to pass up. I know it should be an enjoyable and straighfoward build, with few or no problems. I expect RFM's Sheridan will have the edge on detailing over Tamiya's. So yes, I've pretty much left the older companies behind. Mark
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