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Armor/AFV: Vietnam
All things Vietnam
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Air ID panels
iowabrit
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Posted: Monday, August 11, 2014 - 04:46 AM UTC
Does anyone know if they were in use much in Vietnam? I'm building an M48 and the pic I'm basing it on has some kind of sheet over the searchlight. It appears to be much lighter in color than the rest of the vehicle which makes me think it might be an air ID panel but as the pic is black and white I can't confirm it.
BruceJ8365
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Posted: Monday, August 11, 2014 - 07:49 AM UTC
More than likely it's just a worn, faded canvas searchlight cover.

I did some checking a while back on air recognition panels because I wanted to add some color to some old cold war models and found that although they've existed in one form or another since the 1940's you don't really see them common place until the first gulf war when all the friendly fire stuff was going on.

It seems like the older use was for signaling air craft with a particular message by a ground soldier or airman by laying them out in particular pattern on the ground.

iowabrit
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Posted: Monday, August 11, 2014 - 08:25 AM UTC
Nope, not a searchlight cover, it's not over the FRONT of the searchlight, it's draped over the TOP and tied with ropes or bungie cords (did they have them in those days?)wrapped around underneath. Maybe it's just some kind of weatherproof sheet but it's obviously not designed for the searchlight. The pic I'm referring to is on page 119 of 'Vietnam Tracks' by Simon Dunstan.
trickymissfit
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Posted: Friday, August 15, 2014 - 08:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Nope, not a searchlight cover, it's not over the FRONT of the searchlight, it's draped over the TOP and tied with ropes or bungie cords (did they have them in those days?)wrapped around underneath. Maybe it's just some kind of weatherproof sheet but it's obviously not designed for the searchlight. The pic I'm referring to is on page 119 of 'Vietnam Tracks' by Simon Dunstan.



I never saw anybody use a recognition panel of anykind. I have seen the Confederate flag draped over turrets and ACAV's. I've seen hand held panels, and even mirrors. Yet most of the time it was a smoke grenade. Besides, if it were fixed wing aircraft rolling thru at 300mph at 300 feet; he's not going to pick it up very easily. One also needs to remember that if it's a track or a truck in the day light, it's probably ours anyway. NVA operated at night, and that's a different story
gary
BruceJ8365
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2014 - 12:20 PM UTC
There were a lot of arrangements of using canvas rigged up as sun shades held up by arrangements of poles or antennas.

Likely some sort of tarp that would be used for that purpose.

Another arrangements I've seen is draping a tarp over the barrel w the turret turned sideways to make a tent. I guess lots of rain and hot weather can spawn all sorts of creative solutions.
jphillips
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2014 - 12:59 PM UTC
I think Vietnam was probably the last conflict in which American personnel displayed the Confederate battle flag.
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 - 05:58 PM UTC
There was no perceived need for air recognition panels, because the enemy was almost entirely an infantry force when the US commitment was at its height. North Vietnamese armor didn't appear en mass until the 1972 spring offensive, after the US armor forces had largely been pulled out. South Vietnamese armor was employed to defeat them, though a few US helicopters armed with the then-experimental TOW missile were employed to good effect.
trickymissfit
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Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 - 07:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

There were a lot of arrangements of using canvas rigged up as sun shades held up by arrangements of poles or antennas.

Likely some sort of tarp that would be used for that purpose.

Another arrangements I've seen is draping a tarp over the barrel w the turret turned sideways to make a tent. I guess lots of rain and hot weather can spawn all sorts of creative solutions.



keep in mind that the war after Tet in 68 was 70% at night. Yet tracks would usually logger up at sundown. In the daytime, it was common to drape towels or whatever was handy over anything you might touch. Nobody in their right mind ever slept inside a track, and often slept underneath them. Hard rain would see several shelter halves hooked together, and made to look like a tent. If you had a truck that was CBL'd, you had the canvas tarp (probably gone already as they were rarely used on the trucks).
gary
trickymissfit
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Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 - 07:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text

There was no perceived need for air recognition panels, because the enemy was almost entirely an infantry force when the US commitment was at its height. North Vietnamese armor didn't appear en mass until the 1972 spring offensive, after the US armor forces had largely been pulled out. South Vietnamese armor was employed to defeat them, though a few US helicopters armed with the then-experimental TOW missile were employed to good effect.



NVA PT76 tanks were used in early 1968 to over run A101 (Lang Vie) right outside Khe Shan. You could hear them in the far western end of the Que Son Valley moving at night as early as May 1968. It was also fairly common to see them on the Ho Chi Mein Trail.
gary
Frenchy
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Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 - 08:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text

There were a lot of arrangements of using canvas rigged up as sun shades held up by arrangements of poles or antennas.



Some examples :









H.P.
Tankrider
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Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 - 08:42 AM UTC
Steve,
I coudl see a VS-17 panel being used on thr searchlight as a friendly unit marker to indicate the forward edge of friendly troops if the unit or convoy was ambushed and had to call in rotary wing air support, especially is that tank belonged to a Cav unit (who had attack helos organic to the unit). Woulkd concur with Gary that fast movers were probably moving too fast to see the panel but FACs and helos would be able to see the panel on the vehicle. I have used them as far recognition signals when conducting a rearward passage of lines, but that was in a differant time & place...

Just my $.02

John
iowabrit
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Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 - 09:15 AM UTC
well, thanks for the input guys. I think I'm going to go with a plain green tarp. I guess it may be the angle of the sheet on top of the searchlight which might make it appear to be a very light color.
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 - 11:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

There was no perceived need for air recognition panels, because the enemy was almost entirely an infantry force when the US commitment was at its height. North Vietnamese armor didn't appear en mass until the 1972 spring offensive, after the US armor forces had largely been pulled out. South Vietnamese armor was employed to defeat them, though a few US helicopters armed with the then-experimental TOW missile were employed to good effect.



NVA PT76 tanks were used in early 1968 to over run A101 (Lang Vie) right outside Khe Shan. You could hear them in the far western end of the Que Son Valley moving at night as early as May 1968. It was also fairly common to see them on the Ho Chi Mein Trail.
gary


You've made my point. The armored attack was so unexpected that nobody at Lang Vei had any antitank weapons to fend off the very modestly armored PT-76's. When the NVA used PT-76's for a night assault on a position held by M48A3's, they were chewed up very badly, and NVA armor made itself scarce again until 1972.
trickymissfit
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Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 - 05:26 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

There was no perceived need for air recognition panels, because the enemy was almost entirely an infantry force when the US commitment was at its height. North Vietnamese armor didn't appear en mass until the 1972 spring offensive, after the US armor forces had largely been pulled out. South Vietnamese armor was employed to defeat them, though a few US helicopters armed with the then-experimental TOW missile were employed to good effect.



Lang Vie should never have happened! Request for arty support was denied from Khe Sahn. They claimed it was their generators back firing. I've heard the recordings of that requested fire mission several times. They did knock out two or three of the tanks (don't remember how many were there). All fire missions are recorded at Div. level, and sometimes at battalion level. They are always taken seriously except by a certain Marine Major (later unemployed). The Team at A101 was over ran, but retook the camp the next day with a MIKE Force. They did knock out two or three of the tanks, but have no idea how many were there. There was a deep under the table investigation, and Abrams was sent up there to relieve several members of the General Staff, some others under them. Plus it pretty much ended one four star Admiral's military career. Nothing happened because he arrived the day before the start of Tet, and nothing happened till much later.

A little later A102 was over ran in the Ashau Valley, and there was never another attempt to retake it. A102 was reopened further south, and had two recoiless rifles on hand. A few months later they rotated 155mm arty thru it, and the last battery knocked out three tanks a couple miles west of the Hiep Duc Ridge (making their way towards the southern end (being hit by a 155 round must have been exciting!)

Major General Koster told everyone in a lecture on or around the 10th of December, 1967 to expect to be seeing tanks as they knew they were there. I was at that lecture. (in Chu Lai) He also told us about what to expect during Tet (no surprises with him). He was right about 50%, as it was twice as big as he stated.
gary

NVA PT76 tanks were used in early 1968 to over run A101 (Lang Vie) right outside Khe Shan. You could hear them in the far western end of the Que Son Valley moving at night as early as May 1968. It was also fairly common to see them on the Ho Chi Mein Trail.
gary


You've made my point. The armored attack was so unexpected that nobody at Lang Vei had any antitank weapons to fend off the very modestly armored PT-76's. When the NVA used PT-76's for a night assault on a position held by M48A3's, they were chewed up very badly, and NVA armor made itself scarce again until 1972.

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