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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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Question on Creighton Abrams' Thunderbolt I
Aurora-7
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Posted: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 - 10:19 PM UTC
I was interested in doing a model of Creighton Abrams first tank he called 'Thunderbolt'. Plenty of examples of his later TB's (like IV, V, VI and VII) but what was his very first 'Thunderbolt'? A M4A3?
ericadeane
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 01:14 AM UTC
It was a straight M4 Medium
Aurora-7
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 01:29 AM UTC
I didn't realize there was such a thing as a 'straight' M4. I thought they were was a sub designation for every model.

From what I've researched so far, Thunderbolt V was the first Thunderbolt he took into combat, starting at Normandy. Another source also simply lists it as an 'M4'.
Pedro
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 01:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I didn't realize there was such a thing as a 'straight' M4. I thought they were was a sub designation for every model.



Yes there were, M4 is just one of them
Aurora-7
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 02:33 AM UTC
it's not considered the 'composite' M4, is it?

Also, would anyone know of a 1/72 kit of the basic or straight M4?

I seem to see mostly M4A1s, M4A3s, and other variants. I worry what I see as just 'M4' is just a retailer site not being descriptive enough.

Is this Trumpeter kit a straight M4?



And thanks all for the help.
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 03:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

it's not considered the 'composite' M4, is it?

Also, would anyone know of a 1/72 kit of the basic or straight M4?

I seem to see mostly M4A1s, M4A3s, and other variants. I worry what I see as just 'M4' is just a retailer site not being descriptive enough.

Is this Trumpeter kit a straight M4?



And thanks all for the help.



Yes, that is a straight M4.

The base model M4 had a 56-degree welded hull and the Wright Continental radial engine. The M4A1 was mechanically identical, but had a cast upper hull (the composite M4 was built by Chrysler from August, 1943, until January, 1944, and had a cast front upper hull, and a welded rear hull). After January, 1944, the only base model M4 in production was the howitzer version, using the new 47-degree hull with the large hatches. In 1942-43, only M4 and M4A1 tanks were shipped overseas for US Army use.

M4A2 was a welded hull with twin diesel engines, built mainly for export, though US Army used them for training, and they were widely used by the US Marines in the Pacific. After January, 1944, they were built with the 47 degree hull as well, and later models, from summer 1944 on, had the 76 mm gun (issued only to the Soviets).

M4A3 dry stowage was a welded, 56-degree hull with a Ford GAA engine and 75 mm gun. They were used for training, but a handful were shipped to Europe in 1945 to make up shortages. After January, 1944, this variant was built using the 47-degree hull, and could have either a 75 mm gun, 105 mm howitzer, or 76 mm gun. Gun tanks had wet stowage, howitzer tanks did not. From August, 1944, they were built with the HVSS suspension. These variants started to supplant the other versions in Europe from July, 1944.

M4A4 was built for the British, and used five Chrysler straight six automobile engines in a lengthened hull. All had dry stowage, 56-degree hulls. Production ended in August, 1943. The US used 1,200 for training, and then rebuilt them and shipped them to the UK, once the US training program wound down.

M4A6 was a small batch of 75 radial diesel tanks with a lengthened composite hull. They were used for training at Fort Knox.
Kenaicop
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 03:38 AM UTC
Welcome to the world of Sherman modeling! It's like an onion with never ending layers that go on, and on, and on...
Aurora-7
#360
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 05:07 AM UTC
Ah, thank you, Gerald. I knew this was the place for the question.

Had done some Shermans many, many years ago and only new the most basic information of them. Watching Patton 360 on the History Channel got me thinking about them again when they got to Creighton Abrams.

With most of my focus on ships I wanted to keep my armor to a more manageable 1/72 scale.
ALBOWIE
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 05:54 AM UTC
The Best Kit in 72nd for an M4 is the NEW tool Heller M4 SHERMAN D-Day Kit no 79892. Beware though as Heller also sell the old Airfix One in a new Heller box and it is not worth getting.
E Bay seems to be the only place to find these though you can purchase from Hellers online store but if you do the shipping is ridiculous and you acan get three shipped for the same price:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Heller-1-72-Sherman-79892-/371429803182?hash=item567af104ae:g:fyQAAOSwDNdV6U03
Al
Aurora-7
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 06:18 AM UTC
I saw that and was suspicious of it. I never heard anything about Heller kits for armor, particularly for 1/72 armor.
ALBOWIE
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Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 02:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I saw that and was suspicious of it. I never heard anything about Heller kits for armor, particularly for 1/72 armor.



Look up reviews. The Best 72nd Sherman ever IMHO. DML's were nice but this takes it to a new level and more buildable. I keep hoping Airfix will rebox these as there is no heller distribution here. Heller have done quite a bit of 72nd Armour (Mainly French Wartime and Cold War but some Allied WW2 (Higgins Boat, Jeep and GMC 6X6).
Al
ericadeane
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Posted: Thursday, October 29, 2015 - 12:00 AM UTC


Although the bottom left one is actually Thunderbolt VI, not IV
Aurora-7
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Posted: Thursday, October 29, 2015 - 12:26 AM UTC
Thanks Al and Roy.

Yes, I checked a few reviews and the Heller kit is quite nice. All the wheels to the bogies are molded individually. 90 separate parts in all for the little kit.

And from what I've learned so far, Thunderbolts I through IV were 'worn' out from use before Thunderbolt V was the first of the Thunderbolts to actually see combat.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Thursday, October 29, 2015 - 01:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I didn't realize there was such a thing as a 'straight' M4. I thought they were was a sub designation for every model.

From what I've researched so far, Thunderbolt V was the first Thunderbolt he took into combat, starting at Normandy. Another source also simply lists it as an 'M4'.



YUP, there certainly was such a thing as a "straight" M4- There were THOUSANDS OF THEM!!!

The M4 was supposed to be the first Sherman to go into production and be accepted by the US Army. This was the version with the angled, welded 56-degree glacis hull with Direct Vision on the earliest models. Direct Vision was subsequently deleted on the 56-degree M4 and M4A1 hulls because it was found that the Direct Vision Hatch/Periscope assemblies posed a dangerous "shot-trap" for the Driver and Assistant Driver.

The M4A1 (cast 56-degree hull) beat the M4 into production by a few months. Later, the 47-degree hull with larger Driver's hatches was introduced to provide safer, better egress for the Drivers, better ballistic protection against enemy fire, and also employed "wet" ammo stowage containers in order to help negate fire hazards. The M4A1 retained it's original designation even with the new 47-degree hull.

The Diesel-engined M4A2 was first manufactured with the 56-degree hull, and subsequently with the 47-degree hull, which were also known as "big hatch" hulls. M4A2s saw service with stateside US Army Training Units, the US Marines and foreign forces, notably the British, Canadian, Australian and other Allies, and also with Soviet forces.

M4A3s were initially built with the early M4 56-degree hulls, and were subsequently built with the 47-degree hull that most modellers are familiar with...

Personally, I can't wait for AMPERSAND to come out with the "Son of Sherman" Volume 2 book, which will no doubt contain everything a modeller might want to ask about ANY M4-series Medium Tank, PLUS builds of all the major Sherman variants...

M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Thursday, October 29, 2015 - 01:05 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

it's not considered the 'composite' M4, is it?

Also, would anyone know of a 1/72 kit of the basic or straight M4?

I seem to see mostly M4A1s, M4A3s, and other variants. I worry what I see as just 'M4' is just a retailer site not being descriptive enough.

Is this Trumpeter kit a straight M4?



And thanks all for the help.



Yes, that is a straight M4.

The base model M4 had a 56-degree welded hull and the Wright Continental radial engine. The M4A1 was mechanically identical, but had a cast upper hull (the composite M4 was built by Chrysler from August, 1943, until January, 1944, and had a cast front upper hull, and a welded rear hull). After January, 1944, the only base model M4 in production was the howitzer version, using the new 47-degree hull with the large hatches. In 1942-43, only M4 and M4A1 tanks were shipped overseas for US Army use.

M4A2 was a welded hull with twin diesel engines, built mainly for export, though US Army used them for training, and they were widely used by the US Marines in the Pacific. After January, 1944, they were built with the 47 degree hull as well, and later models, from summer 1944 on, had the 76 mm gun (issued only to the Soviets).

M4A3 dry stowage was a welded, 56-degree hull with a Ford GAA engine and 75 mm gun. They were used for training, but a handful were shipped to Europe in 1945 to make up shortages. After January, 1944, this variant was built using the 47-degree hull, and could have either a 75 mm gun, 105 mm howitzer, or 76 mm gun. Gun tanks had wet stowage, howitzer tanks did not. From August, 1944, they were built with the HVSS suspension. These variants started to supplant the other versions in Europe from July, 1944.

M4A4 was built for the British, and used five Chrysler straight six automobile engines in a lengthened hull. All had dry stowage, 56-degree hulls. Production ended in August, 1943. The US used 1,200 for training, and then rebuilt them and shipped them to the UK, once the US training program wound down.

M4A6 was a small batch of 75 radial diesel tanks with a lengthened composite hull. They were used for training at Fort Knox.



YEAH! What Gerald said...
Aurora-7
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Posted: Friday, October 30, 2015 - 03:53 AM UTC
Got one of the Hellers off Ebay for about $22.00 (US) including shipping. Really surprised since it's coming from the UK.
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