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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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Operation Cobra Help
retiredyank
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Posted: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 - 07:37 PM UTC
I want to represent US forces of the 2nd Armored Division pushing through a hedgerow, during Operation Cobra. On the other side of the hedge, I would like to place a small German force. I have seen photos of Panthers and one grainy Stug ko'd. So far, I have found infantry that will work, but am unsure if there would be any German transport or armored units present. The focus will be on the Sherman(which will also have infantry of the 2nd supporting it). Can anybody point me in the right direction of what German presence would be most likely?
russamotto
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Posted: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 - 08:53 PM UTC
German trucks, halftracks, SP guns like the Marder II and III, pz. IV as well as the Panther and StuG III. I saw a list of German units involved once.
retiredyank
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Posted: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 - 09:02 PM UTC

Quoted Text

German trucks, halftracks, SP guns like the Marder II and III, pz. IV as well as the Panther and StuG III. I saw a list of German units involved once.



Pretty much any piece of equipment is fair game, then.
Biggles2
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Posted: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 - 09:04 PM UTC

Quoted Text

German trucks, halftracks, SP guns like the Marder II and III, pz. IV as well as the Panther and StuG III. I saw a list of German units involved once.


As well...because of the nature of the terrain, troops were also disembarked at a distance from where their positions actually were. You could go either way, depending on how you form your topography. A nice choice could be an Sd Kfz 250 with short 75 mm gun for inf support in a bocage road.
barkingdigger
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#013
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Posted: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 - 09:15 PM UTC
Wasn't the Panzer Lehr Division the opposing force during Op Cobra? In addition to the suggestions you already have, you can add towed 88s, half-tracks, and the ubiquitous Pak 40 75mm towed AT gun. It really depends on your diorama, as some of these choices might look too dominant in the scene. Also, it depends on location (on road, in field) as to which vehicles might be present behind the hedge.
Biggles2
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Posted: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 - 09:18 PM UTC
An interesting scenario is this, an illustration from the Osprey book on Operation Cobra: a Sherman, with hedge cutter and inf support is breaking through the bocage, and outflanking a 75mm Pak, which is aiming the other way. The Pak crew, and supporting inf, look quite distressed and are quickly abandoning their position. I started this scenario years ago before I got interested in model ships and never completed it - yours if you want it!
Biggles2
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Posted: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 - 09:26 PM UTC
2nd SS got decimated in an ill-advised retreat across both 2nd and 3rd US Armored Div fronts, and their columns were cut up and destroyed by both US divisions during confused night actions. There are photos of columns of destroyed and abandoned German vehicles stretching along bocage roads.
retiredyank
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Posted: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 - 09:53 PM UTC

Quoted Text

a Sherman, with hedge cutter and inf support is breaking through the bocage, and outflanking a 75mm Pak, which is aiming the other way. The Pak crew, and supporting inf, look quite distressed and are quickly abandoning their position.



Get out of my head, Biggles2! Without even seeing the cover, that was the idea I had in my head.
Biggles2
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Posted: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 - 10:08 PM UTC
Great minds think alike!
Sean50
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Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 02:03 PM UTC
Hello there,

A couple of books you might like to keep an eye out for....

Mark Bando's Breakout at Normandy which is long out of print, although there was talk of a reprint- it's been already done in French.

Martin Blumenson's Breakout and Pursuit which can be read for free here.
The latter has some good maps showing who was where.

Do a Google image search for Roncey Pocket and you'll get some idea of the carnage in that area. It also hasn't changed that much down there so Google Earth Street View is your friend for reference.....

Cheers

Sean
retiredyank
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Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 02:11 PM UTC
Thanks, Sean. Breakout at Normandy is available from Amazon. It is a little stout for my wallet, this month. I'll order it in a week or so.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 02:53 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Wasn't the Panzer Lehr Division the opposing force during Op Cobra? In addition to the suggestions you already have, you can add towed 88s, half-tracks, and the ubiquitous Pak 40 75mm towed AT gun. It really depends on your diorama, as some of these choices might look too dominant in the scene. Also, it depends on location (on road, in field) as to which vehicles might be present behind the hedge.



Also keep in mind that Panzer Lehr was on the way to Normandy when it was virtually obliterated by US/Allied air power, (JABOS), before a few of their surviving vehicles actually made it into the Bocage. I should also mention that there was a very strong Fallschirmjaeger presence in Normandy, which you might be able to enhance your project with, say, a Panzerfaust or MG-42 team "bugging out"..? You might want to also include a few Fallschirmjaeger caught in surprise by GIs- "HAENDE HOCH!!!"

What sort of a 2nd Armored Sherman are you planning to use? Bear in mind that most US Armor in Normandy were still M5A1 Lights, M4 Mid-to-Late 75mm VVSS (Dry) and M4A1 Mid-to-Late 75mm VVSS (Dry) Mediums. These used the 56-degree welded and cast "Small Hatch" Hulls, respectively. M4 VVSS 76mm (Wet) and M4A1 VVSS 76mm (Wet) Mediums, with the 47-degree "Big Hatch" Hulls, were still comparatively rare in ETO at the time of "COBRA", when compared to the vast numbers of the earlier Shermans that were available for front-line service...

Same goes for 3rd Armored, if you're planning to do a representative of that US Armored Division. 4th, and 6th Armored came in with Patton's Third Army, after the 1st of August, 1944...
retiredyank
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Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2016 - 07:20 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Wasn't the Panzer Lehr Division the opposing force during Op Cobra? In addition to the suggestions you already have, you can add towed 88s, half-tracks, and the ubiquitous Pak 40 75mm towed AT gun. It really depends on your diorama, as some of these choices might look too dominant in the scene. Also, it depends on location (on road, in field) as to which vehicles might be present behind the hedge.



Also keep in mind that Panzer Lehr was on the way to Normandy when it was virtually obliterated by US/Allied air power, (JABOS), before a few of their surviving vehicles actually made it into the Bocage. I should also mention that there was a very strong Fallschirmjaeger presence in Normandy, which you might be able to enhance your project with, say, a Panzerfaust or MG-42 team "bugging out"..? You might want to also include a few Fallschirmjaeger caught in surprise by GIs- "HAENDE HOCH!!!"

What sort of a 2nd Armored Sherman are you planning to use? Bear in mind that most US Armor in Normandy were still M5A1 Lights, M4 Mid-to-Late 75mm VVSS (Dry) and M4A1 Mid-to-Late 75mm VVSS (Dry) Mediums. These used the 56-degree welded and cast "Small Hatch" Hulls, respectively. M4 VVSS 76mm (Wet) and M4A1 VVSS 76mm (Wet) Mediums, with the 47-degree "Big Hatch" Hulls, were still comparatively rare in ETO at the time of "COBRA", when compared to the vast numbers of the earlier Shermans that were available for front-line service...

Same goes for 3rd Armored, if you're planning to do a representative of that US Armored Division. 4th, and 6th Armored came in with Patton's Third Army, after the 1st of August, 1944...



I will be using Dragon's M4A1 Op Cobra. I was thinking of using Dragon's hedgerow tank hunters and, possibly an mg42 team.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Saturday, March 19, 2016 - 02:42 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Wasn't the Panzer Lehr Division the opposing force during Op Cobra? In addition to the suggestions you already have, you can add towed 88s, half-tracks, and the ubiquitous Pak 40 75mm towed AT gun. It really depends on your diorama, as some of these choices might look too dominant in the scene. Also, it depends on location (on road, in field) as to which vehicles might be present behind the hedge.



Also keep in mind that Panzer Lehr was on the way to Normandy when it was virtually obliterated by US/Allied air power, (JABOS), before a few of their surviving vehicles actually made it into the Bocage. I should also mention that there was a very strong Fallschirmjaeger presence in Normandy, which you might be able to enhance your project with, say, a Panzerfaust or MG-42 team "bugging out"..? You might want to also include a few Fallschirmjaeger caught in surprise by GIs- "HAENDE HOCH!!!"

What sort of a 2nd Armored Sherman are you planning to use? Bear in mind that most US Armor in Normandy were still M5A1 Lights, M4 Mid-to-Late 75mm VVSS (Dry) and M4A1 Mid-to-Late 75mm VVSS (Dry) Mediums. These used the 56-degree welded and cast "Small Hatch" Hulls, respectively. M4 VVSS 76mm (Wet) and M4A1 VVSS 76mm (Wet) Mediums, with the 47-degree "Big Hatch" Hulls, were still comparatively rare in ETO at the time of "COBRA", when compared to the vast numbers of the earlier Shermans that were available for front-line service...

Same goes for 3rd Armored, if you're planning to do a representative of that US Armored Division. 4th, and 6th Armored came in with Patton's Third Army, after the 1st of August, 1944...



I will be using Dragon's M4A1 Op Cobra. I was thinking of using Dragon's hedgerow tank hunters and, possibly an mg42 team.



Should be interesting, and will be following your build...
Biggles2
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Posted: Saturday, March 19, 2016 - 07:58 PM UTC
Panzer Lehr was originally positioned to oppose the British front, but were re-directed for a flank attack against US forces during Cobra. They were almost immediately stalled and decimated mostly by artillery strikes, and dug-in infantry.
Sean50
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Posted: Sunday, March 20, 2016 - 02:48 PM UTC
Matt,

if you're just using figures rather than a German vehicle then you have almost a free hand... Heer troops, Waffen-SS or Fallschirmjäger.

For some reason I can't post on Missing Links but saw the thread there. There are many examples in the bocage of extremely close combat. It's a strange environment- sound is distorted and sometimes it's difficult to tell where a particular noise is coming from, and that's in calm circumstances. Factor in confusion, stress, fear, fatigue, dehydration, hunger, 'other noises'.....

If this works.... click on this link, make sure your Street View guy is facing esat, and see if you can tell what's around the corner...

It has long been an intention of mine to try and get this across in miniature form, probably using a shadow box.
One day...

Cheers

Sean
retiredyank
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Posted: Sunday, March 20, 2016 - 04:12 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Matt,

if you're just using figures rather than a German vehicle then you have almost a free hand... Heer troops, Waffen-SS or Fallschirmjäger.

For some reason I can't post on Missing Links but saw the thread there. There are many examples in the bocage of extremely close combat. It's a strange environment- sound is distorted and sometimes it's difficult to tell where a particular noise is coming from, and that's in calm circumstances. Factor in confusion, stress, fear, fatigue, dehydration, hunger, 'other noises'.....

If this works.... click on this link, make sure your Street View guy is facing esat, and see if you can tell what's around the corner...

It has long been an intention of mine to try and get this across in miniature form, probably using a shadow box.
One day...

Cheers

Sean



Thank you for the link. It will be most helpful, as I lay out the ground work. I do not intend to have any German vehicles, per say. The only piece of equipment will be the pak 40 facing the wrong direction. I am attempting to keep the focus on the Sherman breaking through the hedge. With most of the figures concentrating on the brake through, attention should be drawn to the M4A1.
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