I just opened the box on the Tamiya M3 Grant. I read about the tracks being junk - they are - and I've got plenty of road wheels to replace the kits' wrong ones but what of the lower hull? It has the lower hull engine covers of an M4A2 Diesel but this model is supposed to be an air cooled radial. Was there a diesel version of the M3 Grant? If so would I only need the top of the engine compartment to look similar to the M4a2?
Last question, did the Grant ever use the M3 75mm gun or did they only use the shorter m2 75mm? I've seen the M3 on some Lee models.
TIA
Hosted by Darren Baker
M3 Grant - confused
JeffCsr
Joined: January 29, 2015
KitMaker: 91 posts
Armorama: 78 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 26, 2016 - 02:57 AM UTC
highway70
Joined: November 27, 2004
KitMaker: 322 posts
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Posted: Saturday, March 26, 2016 - 04:17 AM UTC
The M3A3 had twin General Motors 6-71 diesel engines. It had an all welded hull
http://tank-photographs.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/m3-grant-iwm-monty-allied-tank.html
This rather poor Youtube video shows the top of the engine compartment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIpEBrcN1IQ
There were also some M3D and M3A1D tanks They were M3 (rivited hull) and M3A1 (cast hull) fitted with Guiberson diesels because of a shortage of Wright radial engines
Source of this information British and American Tanks of World War II by Peter Chamberlain and Chris Ellis, Arcp Publishing Company, Inc 1969
http://tank-photographs.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/m3-grant-iwm-monty-allied-tank.html
This rather poor Youtube video shows the top of the engine compartment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIpEBrcN1IQ
There were also some M3D and M3A1D tanks They were M3 (rivited hull) and M3A1 (cast hull) fitted with Guiberson diesels because of a shortage of Wright radial engines
Source of this information British and American Tanks of World War II by Peter Chamberlain and Chris Ellis, Arcp Publishing Company, Inc 1969
TheGreatPumpkin
Vendor
Joined: April 20, 2009
KitMaker: 690 posts
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Posted: Saturday, March 26, 2016 - 09:01 AM UTC
Jeff,
This is another case of model companies dutifully making models of vehicles at museums and having no idea what they are looking at (ie, the towing lugs on the Tamiya T-34's). The M3 Lee at Aberdeen was a prototype vehicle fitted with the twin 6-71 diesels as stated before and therefor is a one-off "proof of concept" vehicle. This is much like the Aberdeen Firefly Sherman, which IIRC, was based on an M4A2 hull. Tamiya in particular can be forgiven, as they were just tanks in a field, with little other information for the company to work with.
The easiest fix for the kit would be to replace the lower hull rear with one from an Italeri M4A1 (available and cheap, second-hand). If you really wanted to go nuts and make it a diesel, then I'd recommend hunting down an ADV M4A2 conversion set, which came with a drop-in engine compartment (it will need some "massaging" to get it to fit properly) because you see very little once the doors are on. Good luck with th eproject!
Regards,
Georg
This is another case of model companies dutifully making models of vehicles at museums and having no idea what they are looking at (ie, the towing lugs on the Tamiya T-34's). The M3 Lee at Aberdeen was a prototype vehicle fitted with the twin 6-71 diesels as stated before and therefor is a one-off "proof of concept" vehicle. This is much like the Aberdeen Firefly Sherman, which IIRC, was based on an M4A2 hull. Tamiya in particular can be forgiven, as they were just tanks in a field, with little other information for the company to work with.
The easiest fix for the kit would be to replace the lower hull rear with one from an Italeri M4A1 (available and cheap, second-hand). If you really wanted to go nuts and make it a diesel, then I'd recommend hunting down an ADV M4A2 conversion set, which came with a drop-in engine compartment (it will need some "massaging" to get it to fit properly) because you see very little once the doors are on. Good luck with th eproject!
Regards,
Georg
Homer0331
Joined: March 19, 2014
KitMaker: 148 posts
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Posted: Saturday, March 26, 2016 - 09:54 AM UTC
We really need a new tool M3 Lee/Grant.
TheGreatPumpkin
Vendor
Joined: April 20, 2009
KitMaker: 690 posts
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Posted: Saturday, March 26, 2016 - 06:45 PM UTC
Ian,
We already do. Outside of a weird turret casting, the Academy kits are pretty good. They fixed the bogie truck problem, so, for the most part, they are pretty good.
Regards,
Georg
We already do. Outside of a weird turret casting, the Academy kits are pretty good. They fixed the bogie truck problem, so, for the most part, they are pretty good.
Regards,
Georg
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 26, 2016 - 07:36 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Ian,
We already do. Outside of a weird turret casting, the Academy kits are pretty good. They fixed the bogie truck problem, so, for the most part, they are pretty good.
Regards,
Georg
"Pretty good", yes- But "pretty good" doesn't really cut it anymore in today's world, when you compare the ACADEMY M3 Lee/Grant kits to kits manufactured by the likes of DRAGON, (their German stuff- their US/Allied stuff needs improvement), MENG, AFV CLUB, BRONCO, TAKOM, TRUMPETER, the very latest kits from TAMIYA, the fine kits from MIRROR MODELS, MINIART, and from a few selected other model manufacturers...
We can definitely use all-new M3 Lee/Grants, M3/M3A1 Stuart/Honeys, and M8 75mm HMCs...
PS- A new WC-54 Ambulance, and a new M46 and M47 as well...
Removed by original poster on 03/27/16 - 15:40:42 (GMT).
highway70
Joined: November 27, 2004
KitMaker: 322 posts
Armorama: 267 posts
Posted: Saturday, March 26, 2016 - 08:51 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The M3A3 had twin General Motors 6-71 diesel engines. It had an all welded hull
http://tank-photographs.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/m3-grant-iwm-monty-allied-tank.html
This rather poor Youtube video shows the top of the engine compartment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIpEBrcN1IQ
There were also some M3D and M3A1D tanks They were M3 (rivited hull) and M3A1 (cast hull) fitted with Guiberson diesels because of a shortage of Wright radial engines
Source of this information British and American Tanks of World War II by Peter Chamberlain and Chris Ellis, Arcp Publishing Company, Inc 1969
I made a slight goof. The links I gave are to a M3A5. However the M3A5 had the same diesel engine as the M3A3. The difference is the M3A3 has a welded hull, the M3A5 a riveted hull. Baldwin built 322 M3A3 from Mar-Dec 1942 and 591 M3A5 from Jan-Nov 1942.
The M3A3 was a diesel version of the gasoline powered welded hull M3A2. There were only 12 M3A2 built by Baldwin Jan- Mar 1942. .
Early production had opening side doors, Latter side doors welded shut or eliminated. Also the guns were changed during production, early M2 75mm, latter the longer M3 75mm.
There is photo is an Australian M3A3 during a parade in the 1950's. on this site. It has a M2 gun but is upgraded with a M4 suspension. Diesel powered Grants remained in service until Oct 1955 when there were only 50 available for service. http://anzacsteel.hobbyvista.com/Armoured%20Vehicles/m3ph_1.htm
JeffCsr
Joined: January 29, 2015
KitMaker: 91 posts
Armorama: 78 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 27, 2016 - 12:44 AM UTC
All great info,
Thanks!
Thanks!
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
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Posted: Sunday, March 27, 2016 - 03:59 AM UTC
By default, Academy's M3 is not "pretty good", but is the best one, at present (because there is no better one). 
highway70
Joined: November 27, 2004
KitMaker: 322 posts
Armorama: 267 posts
Posted: Sunday, March 27, 2016 - 03:20 PM UTC
There is a photo of the top of the engine compartment of a M3A5 on this site http://militarymashup.com/index.php?m0201002
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
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Posted: Monday, March 28, 2016 - 10:00 PM UTC
Be aware that on top of all the other things wrong with the Tamiya Grant, the hull is too wide by about .100". This means that aftermarket 3-piece differential covers or rear hull details don't fit at all.
Putting the Tamiya upper hull onto a better lower hull will, therefore, involve more surgery than you might have thought.
Also the idler mounts on these kits are total rubbish and you'll need to replace them and the mounting brackets on the hull with something better.
If you reconfigure the rear plates to represent an M3 you'll need to decide whether you want to go with an early or late Grant, the Early had the Wright engine with external pepperpot exhausts while the late had the later external air cleaners and either fishtail exhausts low on the rear plate or the later-still exhausts protruding under the lip of the centre of the rear hull overhang.
The Grant turret is a subtle shape to get right. I don't think any of the kits gets it right. ABM had a turret years ago that was the right shape.
HTH
Paul
Putting the Tamiya upper hull onto a better lower hull will, therefore, involve more surgery than you might have thought.
Also the idler mounts on these kits are total rubbish and you'll need to replace them and the mounting brackets on the hull with something better.
If you reconfigure the rear plates to represent an M3 you'll need to decide whether you want to go with an early or late Grant, the Early had the Wright engine with external pepperpot exhausts while the late had the later external air cleaners and either fishtail exhausts low on the rear plate or the later-still exhausts protruding under the lip of the centre of the rear hull overhang.
The Grant turret is a subtle shape to get right. I don't think any of the kits gets it right. ABM had a turret years ago that was the right shape.
HTH
Paul
ALBOWIE
Joined: February 28, 2006
KitMaker: 1,605 posts
Armorama: 1,565 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 - 04:39 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Be aware that on top of all the other things wrong with the Tamiya Grant, the hull is too wide by about .100". This means that aftermarket 3-piece differential covers or rear hull details don't fit at all.
Putting the Tamiya upper hull onto a better lower hull will, therefore, involve more surgery than you might have thought.
Also the idler mounts on these kits are total rubbish and you'll need to replace them and the mounting brackets on the hull with something better.
If you reconfigure the rear plates to represent an M3 you'll need to decide whether you want to go with an early or late Grant, the Early had the Wright engine with external pepperpot exhausts while the late had the later external air cleaners and either fishtail exhausts low on the rear plate or the later-still exhausts protruding under the lip of the centre of the rear hull overhang.
The Grant turret is a subtle shape to get right. I don't think any of the kits gets it right. ABM had a turret years ago that was the right shape.
HTH
Paul
The Academy Grant turret is a near perfect match in shape for at least three examples I have clambered over but lacks the smoothness of curve that these had (5 mins sanding the curves out from the knife like edges some are. Ity is spot on in measurements, ht, width etc. I did note two distinct different castings on Australian Survivors which are subtly different from each other (Like the different Lee turrets I suppose) It also lacks the rough casting finish these turrets had in places. It's only real fail to this observer is the gunnion mount which has the barrel mounted above the trunnions and is better replaced with the old Tamiya one or carefully cut the kit one off and reposition on the rotor. It is not the best kit but can be built into a really nice example with new bogies and basic modelling skills
Al
Homer0331
Joined: March 19, 2014
KitMaker: 148 posts
Armorama: 148 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 - 10:37 AM UTC
Like I said, we need a new tool M3 Lee/Grant.
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 - 02:17 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Like I said, we need a new tool M3 Lee/Grant.
That's for sure...
DRAGON dropped the ball a few years ago, after having advertised an M3 Lee as "Coming Soon" in their monthly propaganda announcements. After about a year or so, this "Coming Soon" just dropped off the map entirely- I'm not inclined to think that a "NEW!!!" M3 Lee will ever materialize from DRAGON, who are nearly completely devoted to re-boxing their old kits minus a lot of the goodies that made their "King-of the Hill" reputation some years ago.
Rather than have DRAGON bring back their "ghost" of an M3, (which they'll botch, anyway), I'd much rather see another manufacturer come out with all-new "state-of-the-art" kits of the M3-series Medium, i.e, a US M3 Lee, and a British Grant- a US M31 ARV would be nice as well... IMO, I think that entirely new kits of the M3- series would be popular with WWII Armor fans...
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 - 03:34 PM UTC
Quoted Text
IMO, I think that entirely new kits of the M3- series would be popular with WWII Armor fans...
Unless they have more accuracy issues than the existing kits . . .
This is one of the "howevers" that makes all our want lists and the like useless for model companies. There is too much of a history of "I'd buy a dozen!" turning into "I'll pass." when the kit is released. A perfect example is the Academy M551.
The reality is that while a well engineered, detailed, and accurate M3 probably would be popular, even that isn't a guarantee. Despite our public hypothetical enthusiasm it seems we modelers are privately just looking for reasons not to buy kits.
KL
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
Armorama: 2,539 posts
Posted: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 - 11:20 PM UTC
[quoteIt is not the best kit but can be built into a really nice example with new bogies and basic modelling skills[/quote]
I concur, Al. The Academy kit is certainly the best place to start. A little old-fashioned modelling and you can get a good result.
I concur, Al. The Academy kit is certainly the best place to start. A little old-fashioned modelling and you can get a good result.
pseudorealityx
Joined: January 31, 2010
KitMaker: 2,191 posts
Armorama: 1,814 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 - 03:29 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The Grant turret is a subtle shape to get right. I don't think any of the kits gets it right. ABM had a turret years ago that was the right shape.
HTH
Paul
The ABM turret's shape isn't correct. It's far too flat, just like the Tamiya one is far too balloon'ish. The Academy one is the closest in general shape, but needs reshaping, slight relocations of the ports, and texturing.
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 - 12:33 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
The Grant turret is a subtle shape to get right. I don't think any of the kits gets it right. ABM had a turret years ago that was the right shape.
HTH
Paul
The ABM turret's shape isn't correct. It's far too flat, just like the Tamiya one is far too balloon'ish. The Academy one is the closest in general shape, but needs reshaping, slight relocations of the ports, and texturing.
Agree- Which brings me back to my first and second posts in this forum- We need an all-new series of M3 Lee/Grant kits.
JeffCsr
Joined: January 29, 2015
KitMaker: 91 posts
Armorama: 78 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 07, 2016 - 12:42 PM UTC
okay i havent gotten to the turret yet but these sand shields are a pain to fit, plus after making them fit i see photos of actual vehicles that look squared off, where this kits' look rounded off like a shermans' sand shields.
are the kits sand shields correct shaped for at least some m3. grants?
are the kits sand shields correct shaped for at least some m3. grants?
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Thursday, April 07, 2016 - 05:24 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I just opened the box on the Tamiya M3 Grant. I read about the tracks being junk - they are - and I've got plenty of road wheels to replace the kits' wrong ones but what of the lower hull? It has the lower hull engine covers of an M4A2 Diesel but this model is supposed to be an air cooled radial. Was there a diesel version of the M3 Grant? If so would I only need the top of the engine compartment to look similar to the M4a2?
Last question, did the Grant ever use the M3 75mm gun or did they only use the shorter m2 75mm? I've seen the M3 on some Lee models.
TIA
M3 Lee/Grants used the "Short" 75 initially- quite a few of these saw service with British Forces at El Alamein and afterwards. Many were fitted with counter-weights on the end of the Barrel to offset the imbalance of the Gun. By the time the US entered the war, M3 Lees had been fitted with the "Long Barrel" M3 75mm Gun. BOTH guns are available from RB MODELS: RB35B74- Short 75, RB35B76- Long 75. These Metal Barrel sets also include the M3A1 37mm Gun barrels for the Turret.
M1919A .30cal Machine Gun Barrels with pre-formed cooling Sleeves can also be sourced from RB: RB35B82
To correct the shape and accuracy of the Turret, I suggest PANZER ART's Complete M3 Turret Assembly Upgrade, RE35-320 for M3 Lee. I believe that ARMORSCALE at one time made a complete British M3 Grant Turret upgrade set, but I'm not 100% sure on that one. I DO know that ARMORSCALE also makes a VERY NICE Dust Cover for the M3 Grant, to fit the ACADEMY Lee/Grant kits.
PANZER ART also makes a very nice Stowage set, geared towards British Grants, RE35-268
For PE sets, ROYAL MODELS makes a very nice multi-media resin and PE Upgrade, set #604
You'll probably want to replace your Tracks with aftermarket Track sets. BRONCO makes both British-style Tracks and US Tracks. As to the TAMIYA Lee/Grant, the Bogie Wheels are totally WRONG. You'll want to replace those as well, if you're going to use that kit. I'm biting my tongue when I suggest starting out with the ACADEMY M3 Lee or Grant kits, which are much better than the ancient TAMIYA kits, but which still leave A LOT to be desired. We need a TOTALLY-NEW 1/35 M3 Lee/Grant-series of kits, period...
PS- EDUARD makes a very nice 1/35 PE Sand Shields Upgrade for the M3 Grant...
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