_GOTOBOTTOM
Armor/AFV: Modern - USA
Modern Armor, AFVs, and Support vehicles.
Hosted by Darren Baker
New Stryker Variants Inbound
exgrunt
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: December 17, 2013
KitMaker: 301 posts
Armorama: 301 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 19, 2017 - 06:11 PM UTC
Making good progress with fielding a couple of up-gunned Strykers. Both variants are (initially at least) destined for service in Europe.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/13610/u-s-armys-upgunned-stryker-armored-vehicles-will-soon-be-on-the-front-lines

Not sure I'm ok with being buttoned up in the 30mm variant but these will certainly boost firepower in those cav units.
RobinNilsson
Staff MemberTOS Moderator
KITMAKER NETWORK
Visit this Community
Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 19, 2017 - 06:36 PM UTC
Buttoned up = closed hatches, no heads poking out ?
Situational awareness only through sights and view-ports?

Suggested improvement: Protected cameras giving all round vision and the images combined to a 360 degree view shown in a visor in front of the commanders and/or gunners eyes. When the operator turns his/her head the image changes to always show the actual viewing direction. The cameras should be kept small and simple so that plenty of spares can be carried. They also have to be replaceable from the inside (open the lever/lid, pull out the camera, plug in the new one, close the lever/lid, contacts integrated in the socket to avoid loose cables).
Put on the visor, turn your head and get a virtual "head outside the hatch" experience. With more visors allocated to each vehicle it would be possible to have more pairs of eyeballs checking the surroundings.
The visors should not be used for shooting the gun since that would make the cameras too complicated (read expensive).
An infrared capability could be included (same level of capability as night vision goggles).

The programmable airburst capability is frightening. Hugely effective, get the range right and clean out everything behind a wall et.c.

My two cents.
/ Robin
exgrunt
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: December 17, 2013
KitMaker: 301 posts
Armorama: 301 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 19, 2017 - 06:54 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Buttoned up = closed hatches, no heads poking out ?
Situational awareness only through sights and view-ports?

Suggested improvement: Protected cameras giving all round vision and the images combined to a 360 degree view shown in a visor in front of the commanders and/or gunners eyes. When the operator turns his/her head the image changes to always show the actual viewing direction. The cameras should be kept small and simple so that plenty of spares can be carried. They also have to be replaceable from the inside (open the lever/lid, pull out the camera, plug in the new one, close the lever/lid, contacts integrated in the socket to avoid loose cables).
Put on the visor, turn your head and get a virtual "head outside the hatch" experience. With more visors allocated to each vehicle it would be possible to have more pairs of eyeballs checking the surroundings.
The visors should not be used for shooting the gun since that would make the cameras too complicated (read expensive).
An infrared capability could be included (same level of capability as night vision goggles).

The programmable airburst capability is frightening. Hugely effective, get the range right and clean out everything behind a wall et.c.

My two cents.
/ Robin



Yes, as I understand it, the crew is in the hull, no hatches on the turret itself.

I agree that to a point, you can offset this with cameras but there is still no substitute for being able to stick your head out of a hatch and survey the terrain around you. The Israeli's figured this out decades ago, which is why they got rid of those cluncky cupolas on the US supplied M48 and M60's.

I'm guessing that your scheme isn't that far away. I envision something similar to the system in the F-35. Just put 360 degree video feeds into the crew's helmet visors. No need to look at various monitors, just turn your head and the pic on the visor updates accordingly. Complete VR.
Tank1812
Visit this Community
North Carolina, United States
Joined: April 29, 2014
KitMaker: 1,112 posts
Armorama: 886 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 19, 2017 - 07:04 PM UTC
That all well and good with the cameras till technology let you down, either though normal use, environment or other factors.
exgrunt
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: December 17, 2013
KitMaker: 301 posts
Armorama: 301 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 19, 2017 - 07:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text

That all well and good with the cameras till technology let you down, either though normal use, environment or other factors.



Agreed. Unlike the F-35, armored vehicles are known to get covered with stuff called "mud" and "dust". Not sure how well cameras work in those situations.

May not be prudent to have to stop and climb out of your vehicle with paper towels and windex during combat to clean off your camera and view ports.
ReluctantRenegade
Visit this Community
Wien, Austria
Joined: March 09, 2016
KitMaker: 2,408 posts
Armorama: 2,300 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 19, 2017 - 07:16 PM UTC
I guess this is the direction: https://www.defensenews.com/industry/techwatch/2017/07/06/israel-to-enter-era-of-closed-hatch-combat-see-through-tanks/
RobinNilsson
Staff MemberTOS Moderator
KITMAKER NETWORK
Visit this Community
Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 19, 2017 - 09:52 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

That all well and good with the cameras till technology let you down, either though normal use, environment or other factors.



Agreed. Unlike the F-35, armored vehicles are known to get covered with stuff called "mud" and "dust". Not sure how well cameras work in those situations.

May not be prudent to have to stop and climb out of your vehicle with paper towels and windex during combat to clean off your camera and view ports.



Don't know about cars in the US but on this side of the Atlantic there are little spray nozzles in front of the headlights so whenever the windshield is sprayed it also cleans the headlights

As you say/write there are issues that need to be considered.
However, when finding faults/weaknesses or merits with one solution we should also consider the possible merits/faults/weaknesses with the alternative solutions.
In foul weather (rain, hail, sleet, storm) the unprotected Mk 1 eyeball will also suffer from degraded performance. Getting outside to do maintenance in combat is a very bad idea, poking your head outside the hatch in the same conditions is (at least in my amateur view ) probably almost as dangerous.

Sometimes it is just a matter of adjusting to new ideas.
VR or preferably enhanced VR could give an advantage if we include some IR capability (for darkness), since we need to keep track of the viewing direction we might as well show the viewing angle as well (bearing to target, lets the gunner acquire the target half a second faster, bearings to other things, input targets and other information to vehicular information systems). If there are still firing ports for individual weapons the VR view could facilitate aiming/firing. Almost as if firing from the outside.

As I wrote above, instead of only one or two pairs of eyes checking the environment the whole crew/squad could be checking separate sectors. I don't know what kind of field of view one gets from the normal viewports but I am willing to bet that cameras could provide a better one, including the ability to zoom in (as in using binoculars outside the vehicle). It would be possible to provide the same overview as if riding on top on a sunny day even when being under armour.

/ Robin
/ Robin
RobinNilsson
Staff MemberTOS Moderator
KITMAKER NETWORK
Visit this Community
Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 19, 2017 - 09:59 PM UTC



Yes. I would recommend helmet mounted since the whole crew can participate independent of their location relative to any screens. Screens also take up a lot of space.
Using VR goggles/helmets also gives a sensation of true presence, a lot more than screens can ever do.

They should make a film with cameras mounted on to of a tank and then let the users (from tank crew to high ranking officials) view it with VR helmets.
Crews sitting inside the vehicle will also feel the vehicles movements and get a complete illusion of sitting on top.

/ Robin
Tank1812
Visit this Community
North Carolina, United States
Joined: April 29, 2014
KitMaker: 1,112 posts
Armorama: 886 posts
Posted: Saturday, August 19, 2017 - 10:28 PM UTC
The issue I see is there is no redundancy for when technology fails, cause it will happen at some point. With no cupola and vision ports you don't have a back up (even limited) and will be forced to expose yourself even more to see what's around you. You will have a very expensive paper weight at that point.
RobinNilsson
Staff MemberTOS Moderator
KITMAKER NETWORK
Visit this Community
Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 20, 2017 - 12:59 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The issue I see is there is no redundancy for when technology fails, cause it will happen at some point. With no cupola and vision ports you don't have a back up (even limited) and will be forced to expose yourself even more to see what's around you. You will have a very expensive paper weight at that point.



True. Very true

Any technology can fail. Autoloaders, sighting systems, ballistics computers, gas turbines, diesel engines, track links, welds, detonators, automatic rifles. Even a simple item like a club can fail if the handle breaks.

This is the big challenge with all kind of technical systems (the hinge to the door on my kitchen oven failed yesterday). The trick is redundancy and/or procedures for how to handle the problems. German Pz.Kpfw V could also be considered expensive paperweights since they had a lot of engine and transmission problems in the beginning

On the other hand, the tiny camera in my mobile phone hasn't failed yet and it is nearly ten years old (yes, I know, I have a very old mobile phone, my kids think it is embarrasing ...)

/ Robin
35th-scale
Visit this Community
Kildare, Ireland
Joined: November 21, 2007
KitMaker: 3,212 posts
Armorama: 2,807 posts
Posted: Sunday, August 20, 2017 - 02:17 AM UTC
And you also potentially have and air defence variant on the way
https://www.defensenews.com/smr/space-missile-defense/2017/08/09/boeing-gdls-team-up-on-mobile-shorad-system-for-september-shoot-off/
Trisaw
Visit this Community
California, United States
Joined: December 24, 2002
KitMaker: 4,105 posts
Armorama: 2,492 posts
Posted: Monday, August 21, 2017 - 04:18 AM UTC
There's also the Stryker 105mm howitzer that has been tested in the mid-2000s and found to work. It can fire a shell out to 31KM, pretty good for a 105mm cannon.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/iav-sph.htm

https://www.armyrecognition.com/south_africa_african_artillery_vehicles_systems_uk/lav_iii_stryker_t7_105_mm_self-propelled_howitzer_technical_data_sheet_specifications_pictures.html

I've no idea why it was never put into service, considering the current rush to up-army the SBCTs' firepower.
Tank1812
Visit this Community
North Carolina, United States
Joined: April 29, 2014
KitMaker: 1,112 posts
Armorama: 886 posts
Posted: Monday, August 21, 2017 - 05:04 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The issue I see is there is no redundancy for when technology fails, cause it will happen at some point. With no cupola and vision ports you don't have a back up (even limited) and will be forced to expose yourself even more to see what's around you. You will have a very expensive paper weight at that point.



True. Very true

Any technology can fail. Autoloaders, sighting systems, ballistics computers, gas turbines, diesel engines, track links, welds, detonators, automatic rifles. Even a simple item like a club can fail if the handle breaks.

This is the big challenge with all kind of technical systems (the hinge to the door on my kitchen oven failed yesterday). The trick is redundancy and/or procedures for how to handle the problems. German Pz.Kpfw V could also be considered expensive paperweights since they had a lot of engine and transmission problems in the beginning

On the other hand, the tiny camera in my mobile phone hasn't failed yet and it is nearly ten years old (yes, I know, I have a very old mobile phone, my kids think it is embarrasing ...)

/ Robin



Your phone hasn't met a Pvt yet, get two privates together and you can break an anvil w/o either one of them knowing how it happened. That's who would using (abusing) and maintaining that machine. I hope I am wrong but you will see more deadlined vehicles and/or more issue because the cameras fail and there is no backup and that probably won't be the only issue with the vehicle cause it's never just one thing.
RobinNilsson
Staff MemberTOS Moderator
KITMAKER NETWORK
Visit this Community
Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Monday, August 21, 2017 - 05:38 PM UTC
Seems that failing systems is best cured by improving the privates
or maybe trying to get better recruits to start with

Goes to show how vital it is to keep your privates in order ...

/ Robin
pod3105
Visit this Community
Waterford, Ireland
Joined: August 08, 2010
KitMaker: 466 posts
Armorama: 444 posts
Posted: Monday, August 21, 2017 - 08:15 PM UTC
How about camera "ports" that could house a periscope if the camera fails? I know it wouldn't provide anything like the same degree of awareness , but even some would surely be better than none if there isn't a spare or the software goes belly up?
Tank1812
Visit this Community
North Carolina, United States
Joined: April 29, 2014
KitMaker: 1,112 posts
Armorama: 886 posts
Posted: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 - 03:46 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Seems that failing systems is best cured by improving the privates
or maybe trying to get better recruits to start with

Goes to show how vital it is to keep your privates in order ...

/ Robin



I am sure everyone up and down the chain would love better privates but the talent pool is what it is and the game still has to be played.
SEDimmick
Visit this Community
New Jersey, United States
Joined: March 15, 2002
KitMaker: 1,745 posts
Armorama: 1,483 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 - 05:21 PM UTC
For all those complaining about cameras being a single point of failure...well armored vehicles have plenty of other things that are also a single point of failure if they break/go wrong.

Its not helpful to get hung up over something new...properly test it and see what the actual situation is..it might be better then what you think it is.

mogdude
Visit this Community
United States
Joined: June 18, 2012
KitMaker: 459 posts
Armorama: 195 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 - 06:23 PM UTC
the 30mm air bust rounds should be good to use on Helos and drones perhaps
 _GOTOTOP