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Will there be a correct model of the M551
phantom8747
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Posted: Friday, September 22, 2017 - 04:13 AM UTC
Sheridan other than a resin model.I have been waiting since the Academy came out with its inaccuracies.
namengr
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Posted: Friday, September 22, 2017 - 05:08 AM UTC
Possibly, if they discover that an obscure SS panzer unit developed it during the defense of Berlin ! Wayne
jwest21
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Posted: Friday, September 22, 2017 - 05:22 AM UTC
I have hope that Takom might- they have been doing a lot of cold war items lately.
Bravo1102
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Posted: Friday, September 22, 2017 - 07:15 AM UTC
It could be worse. There could be a new kit on the way but it's Dragon Black Label.
U-mark
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Posted: Friday, September 22, 2017 - 09:31 AM UTC
Jaguar Models makes a resin kit that has much better detail than the Dragon kit, even though it has been on the market longer. It's pretty pricey new, but they can be found cheaper used. I've grown old waiting for a good Sheridan kit. Maybe someday.
Vodnik
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Posted: Friday, September 22, 2017 - 10:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Jaguar Models makes a resin kit that has much better detail than the Dragon kit, even though it has been on the market longer. It's pretty pricey new, but they can be found cheaper used. I've grown old waiting for a good Sheridan kit. Maybe someday.


Jaguar kit was just as inaccurate as the Academy one. I actually suspect Academy used the Jaguar kit as a reference and this was the source of most errors. The myth has been created around the Jaguar kit, but it was not a good kit.
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
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Posted: Friday, September 22, 2017 - 11:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Jaguar Models makes a resin kit that has much better detail than the Dragon kit, even though it has been on the market longer. It's pretty pricey new, but they can be found cheaper used. I've grown old waiting for a good Sheridan kit. Maybe someday.


Jaguar kit was just as inaccurate as the Academy one. I actually suspect Academy used the Jaguar kit as a reference and this was the source of most errors. The myth has been created around the Jaguar kit, but it was not a good kit.



the tank was doomed from the get go. TACOM screwed the pooch with all their specs, and they got what they wanted. McNamara had a personal interest in the gun launcher, as did Philco/Ford. The anti tank rocket was a failure from the start, but the real asset was the beehive round. The gun itself had many issues that the OEM manufacture knew little about! The loading and extraction system were virtually unrepairable in the field. The recoil system was just as bad.

The hull being made of aluminum was marginal at best to save as much weight as they could (TACOM's spec). Yet the turret was cast steel. End users found ways to up armor the turret, and Tacom came out with plates to add to the front of the hull. Too little too late.

What it needed was another hundred fifty horsepower and a steel hull. The hydraulic system was really an easy fix, but at the time the machinery was able to make parts accurate enough without doubling the cost. So much of the main gun had to be fitted.

The tank didn't handle mines all that well, and went thru drivers regularly. On the other hand the tank packed a serious punch with the 152mm gun. Cav units used them to bust bunkers, and clear areas with their beehive round. Yet the tank also couldn't break trail or jungle. Had a wider foot print than the M113, and this became a serious problem. They usually were in the back third of a CAV troop.

The Jaguar model has some pluses compared to the Academy kit, but like you say very few. The Academy kits need some work to get them to look like a Sheridan, and I'm stunned that no after market group hasn't done them (well somebody did, but who?). I have a complete turret and hull top that is as close to correct as I've see, but have no idea who sold it. It was given to me by a guy wanting to get rid of his Sheridan stash. All I wanted was the crows nest. Was not made for the Tamiya hull which is toy like. The turret looks right, and looks different than the Academy or Tamiya in shape. Supposedly Dragon tooled a Sheridan years back, but it's never been released! I'm wanting Meng or even RFM to make an attempt on my favorite tank.

By the way Pawl. The "body count" logo is from 3/4CAV or Eleventh , I don't remember at the moment. The body count from B Troop 1st of the 1st CAV was much smaller (think Tam Key), and the tank was either CBL'd or had a name change after a few months. Might also me another body count down in the rubber plantations, but not positive.

gary
Bravo1102
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Posted: Friday, September 22, 2017 - 12:06 PM UTC
The new hull top and turret top were done by AEF. I have the parts too which I inherited from my brother when he gave up in disgust on the whole Sheridan mess. He still has the Tamiya hull and turret though and awaiting inspiration.

I've bitten the bullet and built two Academy kits and so long as I don't compare them to any pictures of real Sheridans I'm okay. I mean just how do you get the driver's hatch and hull front so totally wrong? I have a Vietnam and Desert Storm one and even plan on building a third for 1970s 11ACR. But I do not compare them to any diagrams or anything. I wanted to build them and I did. So horribly wrong. It's like that 50 year old Revell Sherman kit. How can you get something so wrong?


At one point I had even gotten the Jaguar for him and that was not any improvement on the Academy.
Vodnik
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Posted: Friday, September 22, 2017 - 02:18 PM UTC
Doing aftermarket products for Academy Sheridan never made any sense - there is not a single part in the whole kit that is accurate, so any AM set would have to be just a whole new kit...

By the way, even some AM sets that are available are not always that good... E.g. surprisingly Friul tracks for Sheridan are quite inaccurate with wrong shape of links. The only Friul tracks I know that are so inaccurate... Maybe the Friul designer decided that the kit is not worth any better effort.
Whiskey_1
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Posted: Friday, September 22, 2017 - 07:10 PM UTC
The golden rule of modelling states that you have to go to the effort to correct every part in the kit with scratchbuilding to appease the whimsical modelling Gods. If they deem your years of blood,sweat and tears worthy they will bless you with a new plastic kit that is up to par.
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
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Posted: Saturday, September 23, 2017 - 02:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The new hull top and turret top were done by AEF. I have the parts too which I inherited from my brother when he gave up in disgust on the whole Sheridan mess. He still has the Tamiya hull and turret though and awaiting inspiration.

I've bitten the bullet and built two Academy kits and so long as I don't compare them to any pictures of real Sheridans I'm okay. I mean just how do you get the driver's hatch and hull front so totally wrong? I have a Vietnam and Desert Storm one and even plan on building a third for 1970s 11ACR. But I do not compare them to any diagrams or anything. I wanted to build them and I did. So horribly wrong. It's like that 50 year old Revell Sherman kit. How can you get something so wrong?


At one point I had even gotten the Jaguar for him and that was not any improvement on the Academy.



believe it or not, but that Revell Sherman was the first tank kit I built as a kid. I'd swear it's closer to 55 or 0 years young!

Tamiya did get a few things fairly close, and think I might try adding Tamiya pieces to the Academy. Just need to find two or three Tamiya kits
gary
trickymissfit
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Posted: Saturday, September 23, 2017 - 02:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Doing aftermarket products for Academy Sheridan never made any sense - there is not a single part in the whole kit that is accurate, so any AM set would have to be just a whole new kit...

By the way, even some AM sets that are available are not always that good... E.g. surprisingly Friul tracks for Sheridan are quite inaccurate with wrong shape of links. The only Friul tracks I know that are so inaccurate... Maybe the Friul designer decided that the kit is not worth any better effort.



I have the Friul set (just saw them earlier in the week), but have never looked at them. Think I also have a Model Kasten set or something similar.

By the way, not every Sheridan has the cows nest on top the turret. The first one I was around didn't have it for sure.
gary
petbat
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Posted: Saturday, September 23, 2017 - 02:46 AM UTC
Based on the general rule of thumb, if you want an Accurate Sheridan in styrene, then scratch build one. When you are just about ready to add paint to it, a full and accurate kit will be released.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Saturday, September 23, 2017 - 05:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text

"..the tank was doomed from the get go...The anti tank rocket was a failure from the start, but the real asset was the beehive round... The recoil system was just as bad. ..The hull being made of aluminum was marginal at best to save as much weight as they could (TACOM's spec). Yet the turret was cast steel. End users found ways to up armor the turret, and Tacom came out with plates to add to the front of the hull. Too little too late...What it needed was another hundred fifty horsepower and a steel hull. The hydraulic system was really an easy fix, but at the time the machinery was able to make parts accurate enough without doubling the cost. So much of the main gun had to be fitted."



I don't see it this way, and as a former Sheridan soldier in the 11th ACR, we saw the Sheridan for what it was, a fast, lightly armored, amphibious recon vehicle. It had a perfectly serviceable HEAT and HEP round that could devastate a target, and the missile was also serviceable and very accurate under certain conditions up to and over 3,000m. The beehive round was fine, but caused a huge amount of wear on the gun, and in three years in the CAV, I only saw one fired. The real problem with the Sheridan was the recoil of the main gun and the Army's insistence on using it as a MBT replacement. The suspension system and drive train were designed for the missile, but couldn't handle the recoil of the conventional 152mm round. But it had some firsts-- it was the first air transportable and amphibious armored vehicle equipped with a laser range finder, ensuring proper targeting when it was operating (if it wasn't knocked out during recoil). And it was the first light armored vehicle with a missile-gun system capable of defeating the T-55 and T-62. But the missile, not the conventional cannon, was supposed to be the main armament. The "conventional" 152mm round wasn't really "conventional" at all and was 3mm less than a 155mm artillery piece. It had a cellulose combustible cartridge, an obturator ring, and a screw type breech with a detent button designed to hold the round in place--pretty unusual for a tank. This was necessary because the "gun" tube was designed for a missile. The real culprit in the Sheridan's failings was the $5000 cost of every missile(a huge expenditure in the 60s). Many Sheridan crews fired only one missile a year due to the cost. When I was in the 11th CAV in the 70's, we got to fire one missile per platoon each year! By the way, the proper term for the armor plating in the Commander's position is "The Teacup" not the "crowsnest". I built the ancient Tamiya offering in the early 80s after leaving the 11th CAV so I could have a Sheridan to display on my desk as a Company Commander. But an accurate kit is long overdue. I appreciate the Academy effort, but it could be better. I've contemplated combining the best of the Academy and Tamiya kits, but it would be nice if there was a new kit as none of the kits on the market are accurate. I'd love to relive the real headaches of the Sheridan, but I don't need the headaches of the current kits. I could relive lots of old Sheridan stories while building an accurate kit---it was fast, melt-able, punch-able, rugged (in some ways), easily repaired in the field (depending on what was broken), and could be fun when it worked, but because of that fat gun it was a real pain in the ass sometimes.
VR, Russ


KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Saturday, September 23, 2017 - 05:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Will there be a correct model of the M551?



This ought to about cover it:

No, there will never be one, ever.

and

Yes, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised in the near future.

Pick the one that makes you feel better.

KL



trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
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Posted: Saturday, September 23, 2017 - 08:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

"..the tank was doomed from the get go...The anti tank rocket was a failure from the start, but the real asset was the beehive round... The recoil system was just as bad. ..The hull being made of aluminum was marginal at best to save as much weight as they could (TACOM's spec). Yet the turret was cast steel. End users found ways to up armor the turret, and Tacom came out with plates to add to the front of the hull. Too little too late...What it needed was another hundred fifty horsepower and a steel hull. The hydraulic system was really an easy fix, but at the time the machinery was able to make parts accurate enough without doubling the cost. So much of the main gun had to be fitted."



I don't see it this way, and as a former Sheridan soldier in the 11th ACR, we saw the Sheridan for what it was, a fast, lightly armored, amphibious recon vehicle. It had a perfectly serviceable HEAT and HEP round that could devastate a target, and the missile was also serviceable and very accurate under certain conditions up to and over 3,000m. The beehive round was fine, but caused a huge amount of wear on the gun, and in three years in the CAV, I only saw one fired. The real problem with the Sheridan was the recoil of the main gun and the Army's insistence on using it as a MBT replacement. The suspension system and drive train were designed for the missile, but couldn't handle the recoil of the conventional 152mm round. But it had some firsts-- it was the first air transportable and amphibious armored vehicle equipped with a laser range finder, ensuring proper targeting when it was operating (if it wasn't knocked out during recoil). And it was the first light armored vehicle with a missile-gun system capable of defeating the T-55 and T-62. But the missile, not the conventional cannon, was supposed to be the main armament. The "conventional" 152mm round wasn't really "conventional" at all and was 3mm less than a 155mm artillery piece. It had a cellulose combustible cartridge, an obturator ring, and a screw type breech with a detent button designed to hold the round in place--pretty unusual for a tank. This was necessary because the "gun" tube was designed for a missile. The real culprit in the Sheridan's failings was the $5000 cost of every missile(a huge expenditure in the 60s). Many Sheridan crews fired only one missile a year due to the cost. When I was in the 11th CAV in the 70's, we got to fire one missile per platoon each year! By the way, the proper term for the armor plating in the Commander's position is "The Teacup" not the "crowsnest". I built the ancient Tamiya offering in the early 80s after leaving the 11th CAV so I could have a Sheridan to display on my desk as a Company Commander. But an accurate kit is long overdue. I appreciate the Academy effort, but it could be better. I've contemplated combining the best of the Academy and Tamiya kits, but it would be nice if there was a new kit as none of the kits on the market are accurate. I'd love to relive the real headaches of the Sheridan, but I don't need the headaches of the current kits. I could relive lots of old Sheridan stories while building an accurate kit---it was fast, melt-able, punch-able, rugged (in some ways), easily repaired in the field (depending on what was broken), and could be fun when it worked, but because of that fat gun it was a real pain in the ass sometimes.
VR, Russ





I remember when the First Cav was forced to trade M48's for the Sheridan. First thing they found was unserviceable ammunition due to the case swelling up in the wet season. Then they had some mechanical issues with them over heating.
By then they were not thought of very well. Tube life meant little in combat, as the track was in maintenance at least once every six weeks. The recoil issue was from over heated oil caused by the hydraulic pumps dead heading to make up for a lack of volume. By the way it was called crows nest up north
gary
Kevlar06
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Posted: Saturday, September 23, 2017 - 10:45 AM UTC

[/quote]

I remember when the First Cav was forced to trade M48's for the Sheridan. First thing they found was unserviceable ammunition due to the case swelling up in the wet season. Then they had some mechanical issues with them over heating.
By then they were not thought of very well. Tube life meant little in combat, as the track was in maintenance at least once every six weeks. The recoil issue was from over heated oil caused by the hydraulic pumps dead heading to make up for a lack of volume. By the way it was called crows nest up north
gary[/quote]

Up north? I'm was in the Regular Army, in Europe in the 1970s. And the "teacup" was the name it was given at the Armor School too. Hydraulic and overheating problems? Not with our tracks, they all just had a normal heavy recoil from the 152mm gun, which frequently rode up over the second road-wheel as a matter of course. We had our own maintenance section and 3rd echlon maintenance units on site, so ours were in pretty good mechanical condition, considering we were literally the first line of defense in the Fulda gap. The "conventional" recoil was what caused most mechanical failures-- I experienced this several times on the firing line, and the transmission and engine got the brunt of it. Once the back of my teacup with the laser rangefinder battery pack fell off onto the back deck with me in it at Wildflecken, when the retaining bolts were sheared off-- that gun had a wicked recoil under any circumstances. There was no recoil when a missile was fired. We never had any ammo problems, as the cellulose cartridge was waterproof, and came in a sealed rubber bag-- which we conveniently used as covers for the smoke dischargers, but I suppose anything is possible.
VR, Russ
TankSGT
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Posted: Saturday, September 23, 2017 - 09:49 PM UTC
I drove A10 Atrp 1/11th from late 77 until we traded them for M60A1s and was school trained in Knox. We called the TCs plates chicken shields. When I got there the tracks were on their last legs. It was rare for all 6 tracks in the platoon to be up at the same time. Parts were scarce since they were on the way out. The recoil was severe the first 2 road wheels did lift off the ground. The M551 was much better in Europe then Nam, no humidity and moderate temperatures.

Oh and Gary the turret was made of welded plate not cast. If memory serves I don't believe our missile system was operational most of the time.

I built the old Tamiya kit as my tank years ago. I would love an accurate one.

Tom
phantom8747
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Posted: Saturday, September 23, 2017 - 09:57 PM UTC
oh no that would wreck it a Black Label kit.Only good Black Label was by Carling brewery!
trickymissfit
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Posted: Sunday, September 24, 2017 - 02:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I drove A10 Atrp 1/11th from late 77 until we traded them for M60A1s and was school trained in Knox. We called the TCs plates chicken shields. When I got there the tracks were on their last legs. It was rare for all 6 tracks in the platoon to be up at the same time. Parts were scarce since they were on the way out. The recoil was severe the first 2 road wheels did lift off the ground. The M551 was much better in Europe then Nam, no humidity and moderate temperatures.

Oh and Gary the turret was made of welded plate not cast. If memory serves I don't believe our missile system was operational most of the time.

I built the old Tamiya kit as my tank years ago. I would love an accurate one.

Tom



I always knew they were welded steel plat, you might (or I might have) confused you with cast resin.

Back to what I called crows nest. I've heard it called many things, but never tea cup. Toilet was my favorite! Infantry guys gave it that name, not me.

I never could figure out why the traded a perfectly good M48a3 for the Sheridan, and other folks felt the same. Still in the Sheridan's defense, it wasn't quite as prone to bogging down as the 48. But it would! Much, much easier to get out than the M48.
gary
zvezdah1
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Posted: Sunday, September 24, 2017 - 02:50 AM UTC
strictly speaking tho it wasn't a tank really was it? It's listed as an AR/AAV , Armored Recon airborne assault vehicle. It was developed to be airdropped by LAPES if my nomenclature is correct. My dad on his second VN tour was on the team tasked with testing and evaluating it.
Delta42
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Posted: Sunday, September 24, 2017 - 03:15 AM UTC
If anyone is interested in a kit bash and scratch enhanced M551.

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/195276#1635812

Dave
JSSVIII
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Posted: Sunday, September 24, 2017 - 03:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text

If anyone is interested in a kit bash and scratch enhanced M551.

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/195276#1635812

Dave



Thanks for providing that link Dave, nice build! I had wondered what the fixes would look like, and as they say "a picture is worth a thousand words"
skyshark
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Posted: Sunday, September 24, 2017 - 09:04 AM UTC
When did Dragon make a M551
Vodnik
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Posted: Sunday, September 24, 2017 - 10:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text

When did Dragon make a M551


Dragon never made and as far as I know never planned to make a M551.
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