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Armor/AFV: Modern - USA
Modern Armor, AFVs, and Support vehicles.
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Sheridan Smoke Dischargers
BootsDMS
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Posted: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 - 08:22 PM UTC
I am currently wrestling with Academy's Sheridan (I am aware of the shortfalls) but wish to depict the grenade launchers loaded. Do the projectiles project (no pun intended) beyond the launching tubes or do they sit flush with it when installed?

Also, can anyone provide me with a colour guide for the grenades; if they do project are there any markings/stencilling visible?

Despite trawling around the Net I've been unable to come up with much at all on this - although that may reflect my lack of lateral thinking more than anything else.

Thanks in anticipation.

Brian
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 - 08:36 PM UTC
Maybe section 3-5 of this TM could provide something useful:
https://www.scribd.com/document/34755107/TM-9-2350-230-12-Armored-Reconnaissance-Airborne-Assault-Vehicle-M551-Sheridan
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Posted: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 - 08:56 PM UTC


H.P.
BootsDMS
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Posted: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 - 09:09 PM UTC
Robin and Frenchy,

Job done - what - in around 10 minutes or so? All hail to Armorama.

Many thanks - grenades are clearly flush fitted and I understand would have been pale green. (I should have mentioned that my model will be the earlier iteration with the original smoke dischargers as opposed to the later type fitted for the Gulf War for instance).

Thanks again,

Brian
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Posted: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 - 09:13 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Robin and Frenchy,

Job done - what - in around 10 minutes or so? All hail to Armorama.

Many thanks - grenades are clearly flush fitted and I understand would have been pale green. (I should have mentioned that my model will be the earlier iteration with the original smoke dischargers as opposed to the later type fitted for the Gulf War for instance).

Thanks again,

Brian



Nobody beats Frenchy when it comes to finding images
Kevlar06
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Posted: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 - 09:25 PM UTC
As I recall they were a dark green color for the base of the tube, and a pale green color for the top, the stenciling was in red or black-- I can't really recall the exact color but it was dark and at the top of the round, and there was a thin yellow band around the top too. You wouldn't see much of that when the grenade was placed into the launcher. However, we never traveled with them loaded. In fact the only time we would have loaded them was right on the range, and they were not used that much-- usually only for demonstration purposes or checking the system. In the meantime, we used the rubber covers off the conventional round paper bases and stretched them over the launchers to protect and keep the dirt from getting into the launcher. That's the most common way you'd see them in the field. I can't really tell from the photo, but I'm pretty sure that's what you see in Frenchy's attached photo-- the rubber round covers were black in color, and had yellow info printed on them. But that could be the early/prototype launcher too with dummy rounds installed. I was a Sheridan TC and Plt Ldr. for 18 months 1977-78 in the 11th ACR.
VR, Russ
BootsDMS
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Posted: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 12:04 AM UTC
Russ,

Many thanks - there's nothing to touch first hand experience.

I tend to major on 1:35 models from the Cold War - initially reflecting my own span of service but ultimately, despite best intentions, that mutated into the 45 - 89 timespan. Again, initially I wanted to limit it all to MBTs and APCs, but somehow that too has turned into collecting Recce, Arty, Soft Skins and so on. I do however try and limit it all to the Central Region and attempt to model both NATO and their Soviet/Warsaw pact counterparts.

I envisage finishing the Sheridan in the MASSTER scheme deployed in Germany say, around '74. The reason for the grenade question was that although the Cold War is the scenario, I like to portray my models as if it might just turn hot any day soon, hence I try to model them fully bombed up as it were.

Thanks for your help - invaluable.

Brian

PS If there's anything else a Sheridan modeller might need to consider given the above criteria, please do let me know!
Kevlar06
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Posted: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 12:40 AM UTC
Brian,
I’d check references for the MASSTER scheme. There weren’t a lot of Sheridan units in the central region in the mid 70s— the Divisional Cav units of 3ID, 8th ID, and the 11th Cav which was the Corps CAV Regiment. The 7th CAV was assigned to somebody for a while, but I forget who. I can say that the 11th CAV was all MERCD camo by 1976. What kit are you using? The real M551had some differences from both the Tamiya and Academy kits, both of which have a few accuracy problems.
VR, Russ
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Posted: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 01:21 AM UTC
If you haven't seen it already, this is fun to watch; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY7tV8lUhAA
BootsDMS
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Posted: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 01:42 AM UTC
Russ,

I was inspired by the MASSTER scheme in any case, not least from my own (albeit fleeting) observations as a young soldier in the early 70s; the final push was a couple of pictures in a Tankograd book re Exercise Schneller Wechsel 74. Pages 26 and 27 plus a colour shot at the end depict a Sheridan in the scheme; the book cites "11 ACR" as the unit. The pictures will not enable the full scheme to be identified and I may have to wing it a bit but clearly it's the MASSTER pattern.

I am more than aware of the Academy kit's shortcomings and would normally endeavour to fix as much as I can but there's only so much one can do without major surgery or a drastic rebuild say, perhaps combining both kits.

I will alter the cupola protection plates to a more accurate shape, attempt to modify the driver's rotating hatch or at least add some details, add some Eduard etch to the engine covers and perhaps utilise a few more details from this set as appropriate.

I've already added a brass "sleeve" to the gun barrel as I feel the fume extractor version just looks a little more "different". I will bomb up the smoke dischargers as already identified.

The turret stowage rack looks like a bit of a challenge but I've some brass section to try and utilise for that. Any indication of what and how you stowed stuff on that would be welcome.

Valkyrie do a pretty decent crew with the older bone dome type helmets and that will be more or less it. Add a base depicting German farmland and job done - I hope!

A problem - for me - will be devising suitable vehicle codes; I'm happy enough with black stars but the numbers on the hull front and rear are difficult to identify. I can probably stitch the black "US Army" and serial numbers together for the hull sides (albeit mythical ones)but the codes for above will defeat me; if you can help me on those that would be great.

Thanks again for your help and interest.

Brian
BootsDMS
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Posted: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 01:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text

If you haven't seen it already, this is fun to watch; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY7tV8lUhAA



Joe,

Certainly no worse than British Army training films from the same vintage.

But yes, I have seen this - it gave me the idea of modelling my Sheridan with smoke grenades.

Thanks!

Brian
Kevlar06
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Posted: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 04:45 AM UTC
The training film sure brings back memories--some of them not so good! In reality, we didn't move that slow when loading and firing the rounds. Don't know if you caught the rubber bag being pulled off the conventional rounds-- that's the bag we covered our smoke dischargers with when not in use. Nice clean tanks--I never saw one like that when I was in the Cav-- they were beaten and sometimes worn down to bare sheet metal in spots--especially the sides where we ran them through the brush. Not much if any rust though--these are aluminum beasts. We repainted twice a year, Autumn and Spring.
CARGO RACK: As far as the cargo rack went, we had the same type of rack they show in the film. It was a bar of angle iron, coming out below the rear bustle on the right and left, bent in the form of the rear of the turret, wrapping from one side to another. There was a central support bar coming up from the base of the turret near the turret ring that supported this rack. It had a fabric net that stretched around and over it, which could be clipped into strap hangers at the back top of the turret. If we used it, our gear was bagged or boxed, placed in the netting, and the net was then wrapped over the top of the gear to keep it in place (The Academy kit cargo rack is not standard--it's a field modification from some later model Sheridan I think). Some of our M551s had a section of metal fencing material welded to the underside of this rack, also a local field mod, but it was a little more durable than the netting and gave us a solid base.
DETAILS: We all had commander's "teacups" (which is what we called the armor plate around the cupola. I've since learned other units called them by other titles. It contained the battery for the laser range finder on later tanks. A couple of things I notice that are not in the film besides the armored cupola-- there's no searchlight, and I didn't see the IR box open atop the gun, it had a front plate that hinged down.
MARKINGS-- I remember two types for the 11th ACR, one was used when I got there in '76, the other was directed by V Corps sometime in 1978, the Spring I think. The markings were stenciled in black on a sand colored rectangular background (using the same sand colored paint as in the MERDC scheme), and painted just inside the hull lifting rings at the top of the hull, front and back, in four locations. Early-on, the right side of the tank (your left if you were facing it) was marked with 2/11 ACR, the left with F 36 (my tank). This stood for Second Squadron, 11th ACR, Fox troop, #36--which was the 3rd platoon leaders vehicle (hence the "3" and the "6"--where the "3" was the platoon, "6" indicated the unit commanders vehicle, as there were six Sheridans in a Platoon. The Plt. Sergeant was tank #3 if I recall right). In '78, the markings were changed by V Corps directive to "V 2/11 CAV" on the right side front and "F-36" on the left front. It was reversed on the rear. If you were facing the vehicle the unit marking was always on the left. We had no stars at all, black or otherwise. The only other markings were the serial numbers under a small "US ARMY" stenciled just behind and below the front fold up crew step on the right and left side of the forward hull. We also had a small bridge weight marking-- "17" in a circle just to the right of the drivers hatch. On the forward left side of the hull, below and behind the headlight guards was an inset hole with the fire extinguisher "T" pull handle. The handle was always painted gloss red. sometimes there was a small stencil marked "FIRE EXTINGUISHER" just above the bottom of the hull plate, but not always. I remember a few tanks (including mine) had tiny "LIFT HERE" above the upper hull plate lift rings front and back. There was also a white "half arrow" (literally a line with the right half of an arrowhead) painted on the end of the gun tube at the top, stretching about 1/3 the length of the barrel. This was an aid for the commander to aim (lay) the gun for the gunner while in low light situations--it could only be seen by the commander in his cupola, not from the side.
SEARCHLIGHTS: Our searchlights were the small type, mounted left of the gun, and they usually retained all their markings but were left in the forest green color without camo, but they also all had a canvass cover--it was sacrilege to go to the field without the cover, as the reflector lens and reflector would be exposed-- not good for concealment and bad for the lens, which was easily broken or scratched.
When a tank came from the depot to us, it was always painted in forest green, with the serial markings and the small stars in black, but we'd paint those out right away when we camouflaged the tank during the acceptance inspection/prep. Our philosophy was we really didn't need the stars, because if someone was that close to see them, they were too close. Hope this helps. I remember most of this is because as soon as I could get my hands on the Tamiya kit when I got back to the States, I built one as my M551, and I'm holding it in my hands as I type! It's not a "good" model, but it's kept my memory fairly clear.
VR, Russ
Kevlar06
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Posted: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 07:08 AM UTC
It just occurred to me why we never loaded the smoke grenade launchers-- because the turret electronics were not always trustworthy, and in order to get on and off the tank we had to walk over the grenade launchers. So we never loaded them unless we absolutely knew we were going to fire them on the range. That's not to say if we'd been lying in wait for the Russian hordes to come through the Fulda Gap, we wouldn't have loaded them though!
VR, Russ
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Posted: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 07:15 AM UTC
I remember seeing Sheridans in MASSTER when we did an exercise with 11ACR in the 70's. We actually swapped some crew members with them, we were in Scimitars and I had an American gunner for a few days. He was more amazed by the 'Boiling Vessel' than anything else.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 08:43 AM UTC
That must have been before my time, by the time I got there in 77, everything was painted in MERDC.
VR, Russ
BootsDMS
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Posted: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 03:55 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The training film sure brings back memories--some of them not so good! In reality, we didn't move that slow when loading and firing the rounds. Don't know if you caught the rubber bag being pulled off the conventional rounds-- that's the bag we covered our smoke dischargers with when not in use. Nice clean tanks--I never saw one like that when I was in the Cav-- they were beaten and sometimes worn down to bare sheet metal in spots--especially the sides where we ran them through the brush. Not much if any rust though--these are aluminum beasts. We repainted twice a year, Autumn and Spring.
CARGO RACK: As far as the cargo rack went, we had the same type of rack they show in the film. It was a bar of angle iron, coming out below the rear bustle on the right and left, bent in the form of the rear of the turret, wrapping from one side to another. There was a central support bar coming up from the base of the turret near the turret ring that supported this rack. It had a fabric net that stretched around and over it, which could be clipped into strap hangers at the back top of the turret. If we used it, our gear was bagged or boxed, placed in the netting, and the net was then wrapped over the top of the gear to keep it in place (The Academy kit cargo rack is not standard--it's a field modification from some later model Sheridan I think). Some of our M551s had a section of metal fencing material welded to the underside of this rack, also a local field mod, but it was a little more durable than the netting and gave us a solid base.
DETAILS: We all had commander's "teacups" (which is what we called the armor plate around the cupola. I've since learned other units called them by other titles. It contained the battery for the laser range finder on later tanks. A couple of things I notice that are not in the film besides the armored cupola-- there's no searchlight, and I didn't see the IR box open atop the gun, it had a front plate that hinged down.
MARKINGS-- I remember two types for the 11th ACR, one was used when I got there in '76, the other was directed by V Corps sometime in 1978, the Spring I think. The markings were stenciled in black on a sand colored rectangular background (using the same sand colored paint as in the MERDC scheme), and painted just inside the hull lifting rings at the top of the hull, front and back, in four locations. Early-on, the right side of the tank (your left if you were facing it) was marked with 2/11 ACR, the left with F 36 (my tank). This stood for Second Squadron, 11th ACR, Fox troop, #36--which was the 3rd platoon leaders vehicle (hence the "3" and the "6"--where the "3" was the platoon, "6" indicated the unit commanders vehicle, as there were six Sheridans in a Platoon. The Plt. Sergeant was tank #3 if I recall right). In '78, the markings were changed by V Corps directive to "V 2/11 CAV" on the right side front and "F-36" on the left front. It was reversed on the rear. If you were facing the vehicle the unit marking was always on the left. We had no stars at all, black or otherwise. The only other markings were the serial numbers under a small "US ARMY" stenciled just behind and below the front fold up crew step on the right and left side of the forward hull. We also had a small bridge weight marking-- "17" in a circle just to the right of the drivers hatch. On the forward left side of the hull, below and behind the headlight guards was an inset hole with the fire extinguisher "T" pull handle. The handle was always painted gloss red. sometimes there was a small stencil marked "FIRE EXTINGUISHER" just above the bottom of the hull plate, but not always. I remember a few tanks (including mine) had tiny "LIFT HERE" above the upper hull plate lift rings front and back. There was also a white "half arrow" (literally a line with the right half of an arrowhead) painted on the end of the gun tube at the top, stretching about 1/3 the length of the barrel. This was an aid for the commander to aim (lay) the gun for the gunner while in low light situations--it could only be seen by the commander in his cupola, not from the side.
SEARCHLIGHTS: Our searchlights were the small type, mounted left of the gun, and they usually retained all their markings but were left in the forest green color without camo, but they also all had a canvass cover--it was sacrilege to go to the field without the cover, as the reflector lens and reflector would be exposed-- not good for concealment and bad for the lens, which was easily broken or scratched.
When a tank came from the depot to us, it was always painted in forest green, with the serial markings and the small stars in black, but we'd paint those out right away when we camouflaged the tank during the acceptance inspection/prep. Our philosophy was we really didn't need the stars, because if someone was that close to see them, they were too close. Hope this helps. I remember most of this is because as soon as I could get my hands on the Tamiya kit when I got back to the States, I built one as my M551, and I'm holding it in my hands as I type! It's not a "good" model, but it's kept my memory fairly clear.
VR, Russ



Russ,

This is all absolutely priceless; thank you so much. I had planned to show the searchlight uncovered, but thinking it through will now opt for a canvas cover I think (it'll save me a bit of work as well). Thanks too for the stowage rack info - I have some brass section which will take a bit of fine tuning to get the contours but I'm sure I'll get there.

I now understand the marking system a little better as well so thanks for that. I understand these were in white for the MASSTER time frame but at least I can modify all that.

Just one thing, does the earlier timeframe I'm depicting (1974) mean the laser's weren't yet installed? In other words, when did they come in?

The trouble now is, that as I have 2 in my stash I'm tempted to do one in MERDC!

Thanks again.

Brian
BootsDMS
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Posted: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 04:00 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I remember seeing Sheridans in MASSTER when we did an exercise with 11ACR in the 70's. We actually swapped some crew members with them, we were in Scimitars and I had an American gunner for a few days. He was more amazed by the 'Boiling Vessel' than anything else.



Steve,

That must have been quite interesting, not least the difference between British and US recce doctrine: the Brits going for a small vehicle, and the US for something considerably more substantial with comparatively massive firepower.

I haven't built a Scimitar yet - it'll be interesting when alongside the Sheridan I should think. I have done a Bw Luchs and that is pretty much huge when compared to CVR(T)

The BV - always a force multiplier as I understand it!

Brian
Kevlar06
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Posted: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 10:28 PM UTC
Brian, I'm not sure when the laser rangefinder came in, but if the vehicle has the later armor plate around the commander's cupola position, it has a laser. The battery pack for the laser was in the back floor of the "teacup". The commander could scoot back and sit on it. I lost mine at Wildflecken in 1977 when the bolts sheared during recoil, and the back of the "teacup" fell off onto the back deck (boosting me up into the .50 cal in the process. With the battery gone, we had to use the choke sights. The film depicts the early Sheridan without the laser.
VR, Russ
zapper
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Posted: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 10:38 PM UTC
Brian,

PM me your email. I think I have what you need for markings.

Cheers,
/E
BootsDMS
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Posted: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 - 11:45 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Brian, I'm not sure when the laser rangefinder came in, but if the vehicle has the later armor plate around the commander's cupola position, it has a laser. The battery pack for the laser was in the back floor of the "teacup". The commander could scoot back and sit on it. I lost mine at Wildflecken in 1977 when the bolts sheared during recoil, and the back of the "teacup" fell off onto the back deck (boosting me up into the .50 cal in the process. With the battery gone, we had to use the choke sights. The film depicts the early Sheridan without the laser.
VR, Russ



Thanks again Russ; I'm sure I can devise the battery etc and the rangefinder itself once I've done a bit of Googling around.

I'm afraid to say your Wildflecken experience made me chuckle a bit - I'm assuming you weren't too damaged...?!

I attended a (British) Army Aviation exercise there in 1993 so got to know the camp quite well; I was very well looked after by our US hosts.
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Posted: Thursday, March 01, 2018 - 12:02 AM UTC
The right chicken shields, the battery and range finder are all in the Gulf War Sheridan kit. It also has a different storage rack which is a modification of the stock one rather than the one off Vietnam one.

I've done two Academy Sheridans (Vietnam and Gulf War) and have one more to go (.ca. 1977) The Vietnam one has loaded grenade launchers since they were used there. The grenade pieces intended for the Gulf War launchers are decent approximations of the loaded grenade. I wasnt going to get crazy with it as the kit is just so off. I squint and just don't ever compare it to the real thing.
BootsDMS
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Posted: Thursday, March 01, 2018 - 12:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The right chicken shields, the battery and range finder are all in the Gulf War Sheridan kit. It also has a different storage rack which is a modification of the stock one rather than the one off Vietnam one.

I've done two Academy Sheridans (Vietnam and Gulf War) and have one more to go (.ca. 1977) The Vietnam one has loaded grenade launchers since they were used there. The grenade pieces intended for the Gulf War launchers are decent approximations of the loaded grenade. I wasnt going to get crazy with it as the kit is just so off. I squint and just don't ever compare it to the real thing.



Stephen,

Thanks for the tip; I do have the GW version in my stash but this is just more evidence of lack of lateral thinking perhaps; I'll either copy the parts or filch them as required.

Once this project is done I'm sure I'll be squinting alongside you!

Thanks again.

Brian
Kevlar06
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Posted: Thursday, March 01, 2018 - 12:19 AM UTC
Here's a link to a photo of a 3rd of the 11th ACR Sheridan in MASSTER at the border in the early 70s. This was before my time at any rate, as all ours were in MERDC by '76. The commander is wearing the "football" style helmet which was out of use by '76, but he's in a later style cupola with the laser range finder. Note the cargo rack. That's what I remember for sure.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-PGlQPLly1gY/Vp3jUnIiZ0I/AAAAAAAAKBQ/NV4dsHW1CE8/s1600/m551-sheridan_6.jpg
VR, Russ
Kevlar06
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Posted: Thursday, March 01, 2018 - 12:24 AM UTC
I've never built the Academy versions, although I've looked at both in the box and winced a little. I have the Tamiya version on my shelf that I built to "resemble" my tank eons ago. I don't think Tamiya did a bad job with shape, but the details are lacking for sure. I wish somebody would come up with a new kit. Anybody but Dragon that is. AFV club maybe?
VR, Russ
BootsDMS
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Posted: Friday, March 02, 2018 - 12:43 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Here's a link to a photo of a 3rd of the 11th ACR Sheridan in MASSTER at the border in the early 70s. This was before my time at any rate, as all ours were in MERDC by '76. The commander is wearing the "football" style helmet which was out of use by '76, but he's in a later style cupola with the laser range finder. Note the cargo rack. That's what I remember for sure.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-PGlQPLly1gY/Vp3jUnIiZ0I/AAAAAAAAKBQ/NV4dsHW1CE8/s1600/m551-sheridan_6.jpg
VR, Russ



Russ,

Thanks; I encountered this image some years ago and was inspired back then to someday have a go at the MASSTER scheme on a Sheridan; I have at last reached that stage, not least as the Academy model is now available. I am more than aware of its flaws but will try and do it justice yet without the major surgery/mods required if that's not too oxymoronical!

Brian
 _GOTOTOP