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Sweden will buy Patriot
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Tuesday, July 31, 2018 - 10:35 PM UTC
On Swedish news today. A system with four "firing units" will purchased. The government will pass the formal decisions tomorrow.
Patriots ability against ballistic missiles has been an important factor. The reporter asked our minister of defence about which perceived threat that the Patriot is intended to counteract but he declined to answer ....
Iskander maybe?
/ Robin
HermannB
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Posted: Tuesday, July 31, 2018 - 11:54 PM UTC
What kind of tractors are intended? Volvo or Scania? Swedish splinter camo will look attractive on the launcher.
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Posted: Wednesday, August 01, 2018 - 12:49 AM UTC
Haven't got the faintest idea.
Using a kind of truck/tractor that we already have in the inventory would be sensible from a logistics point of view
/ Robin
SEDimmick
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Posted: Wednesday, August 01, 2018 - 01:58 AM UTC
Not bad for a weapons system that is almost 40 years old...
TopSmith
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Posted: Wednesday, August 01, 2018 - 12:46 PM UTC
There must be some good upgrades sence the 90's for the Patriot to be attractive today.
chefchris
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Posted: Wednesday, August 01, 2018 - 02:10 PM UTC
Please forgive my ignorance on the Patriot but what version would it be? Patriot II or something similiar to the IDF Iron shield? I know they have used the Patriot for awhile with good success. Thanks
petbat
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Posted: Wednesday, August 01, 2018 - 02:49 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The reporter asked our minister of defence about which perceived threat that the Patriot is intended to counteract but he declined to answer ....
Iskander maybe?
/ Robin




To deter airplanes full of rowdy tourists from landing in your beautiful country?

Australia has 7 states and Territoties. The state I live in is 4 times the size of Sweden....

No way we could afford a Patriot system as missile defence.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Wednesday, August 01, 2018 - 07:23 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Please forgive my ignorance on the Patriot but what version would it be? Patriot II or something similiar to the IDF Iron shield? I know they have used the Patriot for awhile with good success. Thanks



I may be wrong but I think they said PAC-3.
Bear in mind that I heard it on the radio and reporters sometimes have difficulties with the finer technical details (as in calling an APC a tank ....)
/ Robin
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Posted: Wednesday, August 01, 2018 - 07:27 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The reporter asked our minister of defence about which perceived threat that the Patriot is intended to counteract but he declined to answer ....
Iskander maybe?
/ Robin




To deter airplanes full of rowdy tourists from landing in your beautiful country?

Australia has 7 states and Territoties. The state I live in is 4 times the size of Sweden....

No way we could afford a Patriot system as missile defence.



Maybe not, but maybe you wouldn't need to defend those parts which are only full of kangaroos and rabbits
Focus on protecting the cities and vital installations.

I don't think four "firing units" will be able to cover more than a small part of Sweden either.
/ Robin
matlev
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Posted: Wednesday, August 01, 2018 - 09:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The reporter asked our minister of defence about which perceived threat that the Patriot is intended to counteract but he declined to answer ....
Iskander maybe?
/ Robin




To deter airplanes full of rowdy tourists from landing in your beautiful country?

Australia has 7 states and Territoties. The state I live in is 4 times the size of Sweden....

No way we could afford a Patriot system as missile defence.



Maybe not, but maybe you wouldn't need to defend those parts which are only full of kangaroos and rabbits
Focus on protecting the cities and vital installations.

I don't think four "firing units" will be able to cover more than a small part of Sweden either.
/ Robin



They will actually cover quite a bit but it is all about AD tactics with GBAD and fighter squadrons optimizing the AD-system
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Posted: Wednesday, August 01, 2018 - 11:36 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Not bad for a weapons system that is almost 40 years old...



It's nothing like the units that were used (and failed miserably) during Desert Storm. Had some major upgrades.
sgtreef
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Posted: Thursday, August 02, 2018 - 12:04 AM UTC
This might be a good read.

I always thought Sweden was neutral?

Can understand though, with Russia so close by, not to get off track here, but I thought the days of Colonization were over?

https://breakingdefense.com/2018/07/nordics-mobilize-to-send-russians-clear-message-we-shall-not-be-cowed/


Cheers


Vicious
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Posted: Thursday, August 02, 2018 - 12:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

This might be a good read.

I always thought Sweden was neutral?

Can understand though, with Russia so close by, not to get off track here, but I thought the days of Colonization were over?

https://breakingdefense.com/2018/07/nordics-mobilize-to-send-russians-clear-message-we-shall-not-be-cowed/


Cheers





neutral it does not mean not being able to defend itself against external interference, all neutral countries have an army of defense and depending on historical moments they have an "enemy" on which to focus their defenses
sgtreef
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Posted: Thursday, August 02, 2018 - 12:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

This might be a good read.

I always thought Sweden was neutral?

Can understand though, with Russia so close by, not to get off track here, but I thought the days of Colonization were over?

https://breakingdefense.com/2018/07/nordics-mobilize-to-send-russians-clear-message-we-shall-not-be-cowed/


Cheers





neutral it does not mean not being able to defend itself against external interference, all neutral countries have an army of defense and depending on historical moments they have an "enemy" on which to focus their defenses



I can get along with that idea, Australia , already a bond with Marines ready to drop in and kick Butt.Same also in Nam,about the only ones that had some serious troops on the ground.

Cheers

HermannB
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Posted: Thursday, August 02, 2018 - 12:49 AM UTC
The Swedish Airdefense use currently RBS-70 MANPADS and RBS-97 a.k.a a MIM-23 HAWK. Supplemented by CV9040 AD version. Given the fact that only the southern part of Sweden is densely populated, 4 firing units seem adequate. Maybe Swedish Navy could add to the AD screen.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Thursday, August 02, 2018 - 12:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

This might be a good read.

I always thought Sweden was neutral?

Can understand though, with Russia so close by, not to get off track here, but I thought the days of Colonization were over?

https://breakingdefense.com/2018/07/nordics-mobilize-to-send-russians-clear-message-we-shall-not-be-cowed/


Cheers





neutral it does not mean not being able to defend itself against external interference, all neutral countries have an army of defense and depending on historical moments they have an "enemy" on which to focus their defenses



Swedish governments since the late 1940ies have been trying to persuade the world that Sweden is a neutral country.
This has been and is complete BS and the USSR/WP and now the Russians has considered Sweden to be a part of the western political sphere. All our military doctrine has more or less focused on the scenario of USSR/Russia/WP trying to cross Sweden to get to the Atlantic coast in Norway (which is NATO). The only military goods of Eastern origin that we have ever used is the stuff that we bought from German piles of left over stuff after the NVA was dismantled. The rest has been domestic or bought from Western sources.
Our "neutrality" during the Vietnam War consisted of a lot of words to support VietCong and the North Vietnames and supplying the Carl Gustaf rocket rifle and rockets to the US. We couldn't sell them directly though so the British took grenades from their stock piles and we resupplied the British. In the case of a war the Swedish governement was planned to relocate to Britain, just like the Norwegian during WW II. We have build very long military landing strips for aircraft, not because we needed them for our own aircraft but as emergency landing strips for heavy bombers damaged over USSR/WP territory.
We have practically been members in NATO, except for the guarantees of mutual assistance and the fact that we do not have a vote. NATO would need to help Sweden since that is a good way to protect the northern flank. Just take a look at the map. With Sweden in WP hands it gets more difficult to keep the "plug" in the Danish straits.
The Swedish west coast was a probable launching area for the early generations of US sub launched ballistic missiles. As soon as the figures on missile range became know Sweden realised that our western coast could become infested with USSR/WP attack subs trying to find the US subs. A missile launched from that coast would reach beyond Moscow.

Iskander missiles based in the Kaliningrad area can reach southeast Sweden. Our major naval base is in Karlskrona ...
This is the base for our subs that could interfere with the Russian navy. Those subs that are so dang difficult to locate even out in the open ocean, the baltic waters are fiendishly difficult to hunt subs in.
We know, we have tried many times ...and the Russkies know since it is probably their subs that we have been hunting.
The only one that we "caught" is the one that got itself stuck due to a navigational error (unless it was a deception operation to get our attention away from something else).

Don't ever think that Sweden is neutral in anything else than political blabla. Our so-called neutrality could, to use a popular expression, be described as fake news

The Viggen fighter could not be sold to India since it had a jet engine Made in the US, even if we modified it a little.
We have tried to manufacture most of our equipment in Sweden to prevent getting cut off from supplies but some things we have bought from Western sources.
/ Robin

RobinNilsson
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Posted: Thursday, August 02, 2018 - 12:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The Swedish Airdefense use currently RBS-70 MANPADS and RBS-97 a.k.a a MIM-23 HAWK. Supplemented by CV9040 AD version. Given the fact that only the southern part of Sweden is densely populated, 4 firing units seem adequate. Maybe Swedish Navy could add to the AD screen.



The naval AD capability is fairly limited, mostly for self protection and we do not have AD-missiles, only guns.
It is the capability against ballistic missiles that we really need now that Iskander is deployed in the Kaliningrad area.

I just heard that SAAB will sell RBS-15 to the German navy

/ Robin
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Thursday, August 02, 2018 - 01:04 AM UTC
About having an army, or military force.
Someone has said something like this:
Every country has an army, its own or someone elses. Its own is generally the better option"
/ Robin
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Posted: Thursday, August 02, 2018 - 02:05 AM UTC
RBS-15 Mk.3 is the main armament of the K130 class corvettes. It will be produced in co-operation between Saab and BGT defense. The 5 K130 corvettes are the replacement Gepard Klasse Flug-körper-Schnellboote.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXXhwaRN-Gw

RBS-15 launch containers will be mounted behind the main mast.
sgtreef
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Posted: Thursday, August 02, 2018 - 10:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

This might be a good read.

I always thought Sweden was neutral?

Can understand though, with Russia so close by, not to get off track here, but I thought the days of Colonization were over?

https://breakingdefense.com/2018/07/nordics-mobilize-to-send-russians-clear-message-we-shall-not-be-cowed/


Cheers





neutral it does not mean not being able to defend itself against external interference, all neutral countries have an army of defense and depending on historical moments they have an "enemy" on which to focus their defenses



Swedish governments since the late 1940ies have been trying to persuade the world that Sweden is a neutral country.
This has been and is complete BS and the USSR/WP and now the Russians has considered Sweden to be a part of the western political sphere. All our military doctrine has more or less focused on the scenario of USSR/Russia/WP trying to cross Sweden to get to the Atlantic coast in Norway (which is NATO). The only military goods of Eastern origin that we have ever used is the stuff that we bought from German piles of left over stuff after the NVA was dismantled. The rest has been domestic or bought from Western sources.
Our "neutrality" during the Vietnam War consisted of a lot of words to support VietCong and the North Vietnames and supplying the Carl Gustaf rocket rifle and rockets to the US. We couldn't sell them directly though so the British took grenades from their stock piles and we resupplied the British. In the case of a war the Swedish governement was planned to relocate to Britain, just like the Norwegian during WW II. We have build very long military landing strips for aircraft, not because we needed them for our own aircraft but as emergency landing strips for heavy bombers damaged over USSR/WP territory.
We have practically been members in NATO, except for the guarantees of mutual assistance and the fact that we do not have a vote. NATO would need to help Sweden since that is a good way to protect the northern flank. Just take a look at the map. With Sweden in WP hands it gets more difficult to keep the "plug" in the Danish straits.
The Swedish west coast was a probable launching area for the early generations of US sub launched ballistic missiles. As soon as the figures on missile range became know Sweden realised that our western coast could become infested with USSR/WP attack subs trying to find the US subs. A missile launched from that coast would reach beyond Moscow.

Iskander missiles based in the Kaliningrad area can reach southeast Sweden. Our major naval base is in Karlskrona ...
This is the base for our subs that could interfere with the Russian navy. Those subs that are so dang difficult to locate even out in the open ocean, the baltic waters are fiendishly difficult to hunt subs in.
We know, we have tried many times ...and the Russkies know since it is probably their subs that we have been hunting.
The only one that we "caught" is the one that got itself stuck due to a navigational error (unless it was a deception operation to get our attention away from something else).

Don't ever think that Sweden is neutral in anything else than political blabla. Our so-called neutrality could, to use a popular expression, be described as fake news

The Viggen fighter could not be sold to India since it had a jet engine Made in the US, even if we modified it a little.
We have tried to manufacture most of our equipment in Sweden to prevent getting cut off from supplies but some things we have bought from Western sources.
/ Robin




Good read, all maybe not needed, so like a Bully facing 4 more bullies?
Those Vikings were brutal back in the day, from what I have read.
Vicious
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Posted: Thursday, August 02, 2018 - 10:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text



I can get along with that idea, Australia , already a bond with Marines ready to drop in and kick Butt.Same also in Nam,about the only ones that had some serious troops on the ground.

Cheers




I am not Aussie, I live in Australia now but I am Swiss and like all Swiss I have done compulsory military service in a neutral country, Australia is not a neutral country ... it has never been, but there is not a completely neutral state, it is impossible both for geopolitical reasons and for human reasons, governments are made by people and people have preferences, ideas and alignments.

I did the military service just after the end of the cold war and the army was still focusing on the eventuality of that war and Switzerland was completely focused on an attack from the east, not because the Soviet bloc was a direct enemy but because the odds were all in that direction. During WWI the army was mobilized especially in preparation for a possible German-Austro-Hungarian attack as in WWII by an Italo-German attack, especially after the discovery of the plans for the "Operation Tannenbaum"....not because you are neutral you have to get yourself with your pants down!

"Si vis pacem, para bellum"..."if you want peace, prepare the war"...
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Thursday, August 02, 2018 - 11:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text



Good read, all maybe not needed, so like a Bully facing 4 more bullies?
Those Vikings were brutal back in the day, from what I have read.



Well, that was a thousand years ago
but we can still "prod buttock"
There was a short time in history when Sweden controlled most of the shores around the Baltic Sea. The Russian Tsars also wanted a piece of the economic action (tarifs to import/export goods through the baltic ports). So we went to war and eventually the Russians got the upper hand. Up to the end of WW I the Tsar controlled almost all of the eastern shores of the Baltic but the peace settlement changed most of that and the Finland quit the Russian empire when the revolutions had turned Russia into chaos. At the end Russia had a little piece of the Gulf of Finland and the Finnish border was unpleasantly close to Saint Petersburg.
In the late thirties Stalin made a deal with Adolf about their respective spheres of influence (Nazis and Commies being best buddies, at least until the ink had dried ...).
Stalin was to get Finland, the baltic states, half of Poland and parts of the rest of Eastern Europe.
After WWII Finland had managed to stay out of Stalins grasp, the baltic states were republics of the USSR, Köningsberg had become Kaliningrad and is still under Russian control. The east european countries had been forcibly joined to the Warzaw pact and then the iron curtain came down.
In the 1990'ies the USSR fell apart, the Baltic states popped back into existence and Sweden had less Russian ports (points of departure for an invasion) to worry about. Now a Russian attack can only come over the Gulf of Finland or from Kaliningrad. Otherwise it has to cross NATO territory (the Baltic states and Poland). Going across Finland is an option but the Finns would object to that and Russia has learned that Finland is a tough meal to chew on.
/ Robin
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Posted: Thursday, August 02, 2018 - 01:09 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Not bad for a weapons system that is almost 40 years old...



It's nothing like the units that were used (and failed miserably) during Desert Storm. Had some major upgrades.



Actually, Patriot performed surprisingly well during Desert Storm. Considering it had been designed specifically against aircraft, rather than ballistic missiles. The fact that they were able to modify and field an anti-ballistic missile capability in such a short span of time is quite incredible. Of course, if one considers anything less than 80% kill rate a miserable failure, then I do see your point.

The current PAC-3 missile system coupled with the latest Radar and software upgrades are very capable against both aircraft and ballistic threats, even reaching to high endo-atmospheric altitudes. While PATRIOT gained its reputation as a ballistic missile killer, its pedigree is still as a counter to air-breathing threats.

The real question is why anyone would threaten the country that gave us ABBA? The music more than makes up for those tax-dodging jumpsuits!!

Vicious
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Posted: Thursday, August 02, 2018 - 02:25 PM UTC
I think that's the Swedish problem ... ABBA ... Putin is a big Band fan ... why buy memorabilia if you can have them and their country directly !! ... can change the name of Stockholm in Abbagrad!!



... and joking aside Putin is a great admirer of ABBA .... really!

RobinNilsson
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Posted: Thursday, August 02, 2018 - 08:20 PM UTC
Why would anyone threaten Sweden?

1. It's not about ABBA We have plenty of Russian tourists visiting Sweden so if they want to experience "Home of ABBA" then they can simply book a ticket.

2. It is a geopolitical thing. Russia/USSR needs/wants access to the Atlantic from the Baltic ports. Sweden controls the eastern shore of the outlet from the Baltic into the North Sea/Atlantic. NATO has a stranglehold on the rest of that passage. One of the possible ways to break that stranglehold is to gain control of the eastern shore -> invade southern Sweden.

3. It is also a strategic problem. NATO will transport reinforcements to the fronts in Europe across the Atlantic. To attack these transports USSR/Russia needs to get their submarines into the Atlantic from the Kola/Murmansk area (Russia north of Finland). NATO controls the gap between Norway and Iceland/Greenland using surface, sub-surface and airborne assets. Control of at least the northern part of Norway would make it easier to challenge NATOs control of these waters. One way to invade Norway is across the sparsely populated areas of northern Finland and Sweden. This would cut Norway neatly into two pieces where the USSR/Russian interest would primarily lay in the northern part -> invade northern Sweden or possibly even across the middle of Sweden.



History has taught Russia that it is relatively easy to bottle up their navy in Saint Petersburg/Leningrad. With the reduction in the Arctic ice cap it gets easier to exit into the Atlantic from Murmansk but the greater picture hasn't changed much.

During WW II we were threatened by Germany and by the UK.
We kept Germany calm by staying more or less neutral and continued to deliver good quality iron ore to the german steel mills. If we had stopped trading with Germany we might have been invaded. It is a lot better to buy the iron ore compared to having to spend soldiers and tanks to go there and take it by force. There was also the danger of us sabotaging the mining facilities. Germany also had a strategic interest in Sweden since they needed to transport troops to/from Norway and to/from northern Finland. Stalins submarines were in the Baltic sinking German and Swedish ships. The Swedish ships transported iron ore to Germany and coal from Germany to Sweden. Many Swedish ships were sunk inside Swedish territorial waters. Stalin didn't give sh*t about Swedish so called neutrality. Soviet bombers also "misnavigated" and dropped bombs on Stockholm and Strängnäs on the 22nd of February 1944. They were on a mission to bomb cities in Finland.
The iron ore shipments to Germany also went through the Norwegian port of Narvik and along the coast of Norway. Cutting off this trade was a British interest so Swedish ships were attacked along the coasts of Germany and the Netherlands when the ships were en route to/from the mouth of the Rhine. German shipping along the coast of Norway was also attacked. A couple of attempts were made to shut down Narvik as well.
Churchill also planned a relief mission to Finland. The idea was to cross Norway at Narvik and use the railroad connecting Narvik with the Gulf of Bothnia (norternmost part of the Baltic) at Luleå passing Kiruna (iron ore mines) on the way. This could bring British supplies into northern Finland to help Finland against the USSR. At the same time it would give the British control over the Swedish iron ore and make sure that it wasn't used to make German tanks.

Sweden avoided a German invasion by delivering iron ore and allowing German troop transports through Sweden.
Churchills "take over" of northern Sweden was prevented by various circumstances, most importantly that Germany was able to push the British and French troops out of Narvik.
We also supported the British war effort by delivering high quality steel, ball bearings and blueprints for the 40 mm Bofors AA-guns. Keeping Sweden out of WW II was a balancing act. We also had to make sure that we could still import some vital goods from the rest of the world, surrounded by Germany and with the allies controlling the oceans.

The strategic situation of Sweden depends on the fact that we are squeezed between Russia and NATO. Before that it was the Warzaw Pact and NATO.

/ Robin
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