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Armor/AFV: Modern - USA
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Bradley Waco siege
Raliman
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Posted: Monday, August 06, 2018 - 12:21 AM UTC
Hi

Can anyone tell me please the best Bradley to replicate the ones that were used in the siege of Waco?

Bravo1102
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Posted: Monday, August 06, 2018 - 12:55 AM UTC
That's a plain M2 just like the old Tamiya kit. Even has open side gun ports and the slope rear of the turret is just visible.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Monday, August 06, 2018 - 01:20 AM UTC
Yup, that is a straight M2 as in the Tamiya kit. It has the newer, square-pad "bigfoot" tracks though.

They are available from AFV Club as both indi-link and one-piece vinyl (rubber band) tracks.

Plastic Indi-link


Vinyl

LeoCmdr
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Posted: Monday, August 06, 2018 - 04:15 PM UTC
It looks like both types of tracks were used so the Tamiya M2 Bradley out of box should do the trick.

The original pic was reversed so I flipped it.


Raliman
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Posted: Monday, August 06, 2018 - 08:25 PM UTC
Many thanks guys.

There are no visible markings on vehicles.
Bravo1102
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Posted: Monday, August 06, 2018 - 08:32 PM UTC
Look at the second photo. There is tape over the bumper codes on the truck.

The two Bradley's were unassigned vehicles? (One reason there would be no gun fitted)
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Monday, August 06, 2018 - 08:33 PM UTC
A possibly dumb question: the main armament was removed due constitutional reasons which forbid using certain kind of weapons against US citizens on American soil?
zapper
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Posted: Monday, August 06, 2018 - 09:45 PM UTC

Quoted Text






Dosen’t matter that much but based on the location of the TOW launcher and sight housing I think it’s safe to say that the image is mirrored.

Cheers,
/E
Removed by original poster on 08/07/18 - 12:24:12 (GMT).
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 12:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

A possibly dumb question: the main armament was removed due constitutional reasons which forbid using certain kind of weapons against US citizens on American soil?



You are refering to the Posse Comitatus Act. The Posse Comitatus Act was enacted in 1878 in response to the improper use of federal military troops in the South during the post-Civil War Reconstruction period.

The 25mm barrels and coax MGs were most likely removed for transport. Nothing in the Posse Comitatus Act adresses types of weapons used. Also, Posse Comitatus did not apply at Waco since they were Texas National Guard troops (TX 49th AR DIV) in a Title 32 state active duty status, not Title 10 federal active duty status. State National Guards are exempt from the Posse Comitatus Act if not federalized.

Also, the Posse Comitatus Act was enacted in 1878 in response to the improper use of military troops in the South during the post-Civil War Reconstruction period. Eisenhower using federal troops to enforce federal law when state/local law enforcement refused to was an allowed exception to the law. Specifically, Eisenhower used the Enforcement Acts, which allow the president to use federal military forces when state authorities are either unable or unwilling to suppress violence that is in opposition to the constitutional rights of the people.

Bravo1102
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Posted: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 01:14 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The 25mm barrels and coax MGs were most likely removed for transport. Nothing in the Posse Comitatus Act adresses types of weapons used. Also, Posse Comitatus did not apply at Waco since they were Texas National Guard troops (TX 49th AR DIV) in a Title 32 state active duty status, not Title 10 federal active duty status. State National Guards are exempt from the Posse Comitatus Act if not federalized.

Also, the Posse Comitatus Act was enacted in 1878 in response to the improper use of military troops in the South during the post-Civil War Reconstruction period. Eisenhower using federal troops to enforce federal law when state/local law enforcement refused to was an allowed exception to the law. Specifically, Eisenhower used the Enforcement Acts, which allow the president to use federal military forces when state authorities are either unable or unwilling to suppress violence that is in opposition to the constitutional rights of the people.



I was formerly in error. Southern Congressman tried to invoke it to stop Eisenhower enforcing Brown v. Board of Education. See Parting the Waters.

This is not the place to go over the history of Reconstruction, but instead the configuration of military vehicles.

So I won't say anything else. I've read so much about Reconstruction I can't even begin to name any book to start with.
Raliman
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Posted: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 01:50 AM UTC
I pretend to build without guns.

On the rear of the turret they have a kind of support that I don´t find in Tamiya kit.





ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 03:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The 25mm barrels and coax MGs were most likely removed for transport. Nothing in the Posse Comitatus Act adresses types of weapons used. Also, Posse Comitatus did not apply at Waco since they were Texas National Guard troops (TX 49th AR DIV) in a Title 32 state active duty status, not Title 10 federal active duty status. State National Guards are exempt from the Posse Comitatus Act if not federalized.



Thanks for the clarification.
matt
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Posted: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 03:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text


On the rear of the turret they have a kind of support that I don´t find in Tamiya kit.



They're the brackets to hold the ammo cans. Not sure if anyone at all makes them
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 04:03 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


On the rear of the turret they have a kind of support that I don´t find in Tamiya kit.



They're the brackets to hold the ammo cans. Not sure if anyone at all makes them



They are available in Eduard's PE sets for the M2, M3, and M2A2.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 04:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Look at the second photo. There is tape over the bumper codes on the truck.

The two Bradley's were unassigned vehicles? (One reason there would be no gun fitted)



They were nominally loaned to law enforcement to provide armored protection only. They did not need or want armament because they did not want to give the impression that the FBI had brought in "army tanks". IIRC the drivers were law enforcement officers, not soldiers. The markings were hidden to remove the visible connection to the Army, and to hinder the ability of some nut to attack the unit in the future to "avenge Waco". A legitimate concern, given the events two years later.

KL
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 12:36 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


On the rear of the turret they have a kind of support that I don´t find in Tamiya kit.



They're the brackets to hold the ammo cans. Not sure if anyone at all makes them





This set on eBay has the ammo can brackets; at a good price too.
Precious_rob
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Posted: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 01:49 PM UTC

"The markings were hidden to remove the visible connection to the Army"

Yeah, it was the bumper codes that would have made people think, "that thing is from the Army," not the actual IFV itself.....


Thirian24
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Posted: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 02:25 PM UTC
I didn't realize there was an Abrams there too.
Raliman
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Posted: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 08:27 PM UTC

Quoted Text



They are available in Eduard's PE sets for the M2, M3, and M2A2.



Thanks !
Raliman
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Posted: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 08:28 PM UTC

Quoted Text



They're the brackets to hold the ammo cans. Not sure if anyone at all makes them




This set on eBay has the ammo can brackets; at a good price too.
[/quote]

Great !
Raliman
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Posted: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 08:31 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I didn't realize there was an Abrams there too.



knewton
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Posted: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 09:11 PM UTC

Quoted Text


"The markings were hidden to remove the visible connection to the Army"

Yeah, it was the bumper codes that would have made people think, "that thing is from the Army," not the actual IFV itself.....



This is amazing, some trainspotters wondering why is the army involved, not “oh look the FBI have rolled out their Bradley”! No one questioned why the FBI would have such a vehicle. And people complain today about the “militarisation” of law enforcement using MRAP. Sheesh

Very interesting thread, btw
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Tuesday, August 07, 2018 - 09:14 PM UTC


Is that an Alabama flag?

Removed by original poster on 08/08/18 - 11:16:11 (GMT).
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