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Armor/AFV: British Armor
Discuss all types of British Armor of all eras.
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Shermans in Market Garden.
m4sherman
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Posted: Sunday, January 06, 2019 - 08:28 AM UTC
I got Market Garden Then and Now for myself this Christmas, and it turned out to be a great set. M4A4's are rather obvious in side view pictures, as are the M4A1's and Composite hulls, but other Sherman types are less clear.

Years ago someone posted a break down of the type of Shermans used by the Guards Armored division in WWII. I lost this post with a computer crash, so I could be wrong about the unit involved, but hopefully someone can direct me to information on what units had which Shermans. Google hasn't been my friend here!

Based on the known pictures, the lead unit, Irish Guards, had M4A4's, and the Grenadier Guards had M4's and M4A4's. However, there is a picture of an M4A2 with welded drivers hoods, said to be from the Irish Guards, lost on the 21st during the fighting on the last stretch to Arnhem.

Assisting the 82nd Airborne, 44RTR had M4, M4A1's, M4A4's and probably M4A2's. I say probably because the only tank I can identify as an 'A2 is a recovery at the end of a line of tanks, and you cannot make out the tanks in the distance. Close up is an M4 Composite Firefly, which makes sense as no 'A2's were made into Fireflys.

I am sure some units had M4A2's, and would like to know for sure what units it was.
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Sunday, January 06, 2019 - 11:34 AM UTC
I tend to concentrate on US tank units, so I humbly defer to others more knowledgeable to give you a unit by unit breakdown of types used in British divisions.

Numerically, the most common Sherman tanks supplied to the UK were M4A4, followed by M4A2. Some M4A1 and welded-hull M4 were also supplied, but in much smaller numbers. The Chrysler composite-hull M4 tanks were supplied in large numbers in late 1943 (not surprising, since all of Chrysler's previous output had been M4A4's, which the US used only for training, the rest going to Britain). Most of these composite-hull tanks were converted to Fireflies.

I suspect that many of the welded hull tanks you've identified as M4's are probably M4A2's. While many Fisher-built tanks had the distinctive welded drivers' hoods, the Federal Machine & Welder, Alco, and Pullman Standard M4A2 tanks had cast hoods, and can hard to distinguish from the front.
m4sherman
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Posted: Sunday, January 06, 2019 - 12:34 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I tend to concentrate on US tank units, so I humbly defer to others more knowledgeable to give you a unit by unit breakdown of types used in British divisions.

Numerically, the most common Sherman tanks supplied to the UK were M4A4, followed by M4A2. Some M4A1 and welded-hull M4 were also supplied, but in much smaller numbers. The Chrysler composite-hull M4 tanks were supplied in large numbers in late 1943 (not surprising, since all of Chrysler's previous output had been M4A4's, which the US used only for training, the rest going to Britain). Most of these composite-hull tanks were converted to Fireflies.

I suspect that many of the welded hull tanks you've identified as M4's are probably M4A2's. While many Fisher-built tanks had the distinctive welded drivers' hoods, the Federal Machine & Welder, Alco, and Pullman Standard M4A2 tanks had cast hoods, and can hard to distinguish from the front.



Thank you. I agree, many, not M4A4, welded hulls could, and should, be M4A2's. The 44RTR had visually identifiable welded hull M4's (rear view), and cast hull M4A1's. I even found one small drivers hood M4 Firefly in the area (if the picture is properly labeled).

Every clear picture of a Guards Sherman that I have found is an M4A4, and 95% are Irish Guards Shermans. I am wondering if the lone M4A2 belonged to another tank unit, and not from the Irish Guards. The 44RTR was supporting the 43 Wessex Division and had tanks in the area.
nsjohn
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Posted: Sunday, January 06, 2019 - 03:13 PM UTC
The nearest info I can find is from June 1944 which indicates that the Guards Armoured Division was wholly equipped with M4A4 (Sherman V), and that only 8th and 27th Armoured Brigades and 2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade had M4A2 (Sherman 111). There were a substantial number of both in the Armoured replacement group, but i would think it unlikely they would have been mixed up because of logistics problems with M4A2 being diesel.
m4sherman
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Posted: Sunday, January 06, 2019 - 04:44 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The nearest info I can find is from June 1944 which indicates that the Guards Armoured Division was wholly equipped with M4A4 (Sherman V), and that only 8th and 27th Armoured Brigades and 2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade had M4A2 (Sherman 111). There were a substantial number of both in the Armoured replacement group, but i would think it unlikely they would have been mixed up because of logistics problems with M4A2 being diesel.



Thank you, that's more than I can find. Picture evidence of the Irish Guards at least shows only M4A4's. However there are pictures of the Coldstream Guards with an M4 Hybrid Firefly and an M4 dozer tank, so maybe by Market Garden the M4's were being issued as replacements, or the captions are wrong. Units of the 8th Armoured Brigade were active in Market Garden, and were following right behind the Guards, which would account for the odd M4A2.

I could find nothing on the 44th RTR besides a basic unit history, and maybe the tanks with the M4A2 based recovery are actually from the 8th AB which was in the same area at about the same time.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Sunday, January 06, 2019 - 06:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

The nearest info I can find is from June 1944 which indicates that the Guards Armoured Division was wholly equipped with M4A4 (Sherman V), and that only 8th and 27th Armoured Brigades and 2nd Canadian Armoured Brigade had M4A2 (Sherman 111). There were a substantial number of both in the Armoured replacement group, but i would think it unlikely they would have been mixed up because of logistics problems with M4A2 being diesel.



Thank you, that's more than I can find. Picture evidence of the Irish Guards at least shows only M4A4's. However there are pictures of the Coldstream Guards with an M4 Hybrid Firefly and an M4 dozer tank, so maybe by Market Garden the M4's were being issued as replacements, or the captions are wrong. Units of the 8th Armoured Brigade were active in Market Garden, and were following right behind the Guards, which would account for the odd M4A2.

I could find nothing on the 44th RTR besides a basic unit history, and maybe the tanks with the M4A2 based recovery are actually from the 8th AB which was in the same area at about the same time.



Hi! I'd agree with the information that you've obtained from the contributors in this thread. There is one little thing that I can add to this subject. BEWARE of the captions to photos shown both in books and on line. The only REAL way to figure things out is to compare the DETAILS of your subject with what your see in the photographic image by using a magnifying glass and your basic Mk.I eyeball. I wish I had a dollar for every inaccurate caption and printed text in my multitudinous collection of books and reference materials. Ditto for on line info. TV sources are ABSOLUTELY THE WORST...
m4sherman
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Posted: Monday, January 07, 2019 - 04:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi! I'd agree with the information that you've obtained from the contributors in this thread. There is one little thing that I can add to this subject. BEWARE of the captions to photos shown both in books and on line. The only REAL way to figure things out is to compare the DETAILS of your subject with what your see in the photographic image by using a magnifying glass and your basic Mk.I eyeball. I wish I had a dollar for every inaccurate caption and printed text in my multitudinous collection of books and reference materials. Ditto for on line info. TV sources are ABSOLUTELY THE WORST...



I never trust captions, unless there is nothing that can be disputed. For example the first tanks destroyed during the breakout by the Irish Guards were well documented, and are M4A4's. After that it gets rather fuzzy. Knowing what units used what tank types is helping me sort it all out.

I started looking for more info on the 8th AB, which fielded M4A2's, and it's Sherwood Rangers were supporting the US 82nd, while the rest of the battalion was supporting the British 43rd Division. If they moved up to and over the Nijmegen bridge with the 43rd it would account for the M4A2's shown in the area. I like the looks of the M4A2's because there are more options. Different noses, hull types, road wheels.
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