I'm finding myself less and less patient and tolerant of people who just can't seem to wrap their heads around these ideas:
> There is objective truth and value. Some things ARE just better than others, no matter how you look at it.
> There is plenty of space between 100% positive agreement and vicious, frothing, personal attacks. A mere disagreement is NOT a personal attack. Noting a factual error in a statement is NOT a death threat.
> Stating that I do something differently than you is NOT the same as saying that YOU ARE STUPID AND DOING EVERYTHING WRONG!! It is NOT saying you must do what I do.
> Opinions, if based on a misunderstanding or the ignorance of facts, can be wrong. It is not a crime against humanity to point out that an opinion is badly developed.
To be clear, what bothers me is NOT discussions but the people who believe that ANY disagreement about modeling runs counter to the mantra of "It's a hobby, it's supposed to be FUN!"
I guess I'm just getting old.
KL
Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
Hosted by Darren Baker, Mario Matijasic
I must be getting old.
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Monday, December 23, 2019 - 04:23 PM UTC
mudlark
Joined: June 18, 2019
KitMaker: 28 posts
Armorama: 27 posts
Posted: Monday, December 23, 2019 - 05:25 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I'm finding myself less and less patient and tolerant of people who just can't seem to wrap their heads around these ideas:
> There is objective truth and value. Some things ARE just better than others, no matter how you look at it.
> There is plenty of space between 100% positive agreement and vicious, frothing, personal attacks. A mere disagreement is NOT a personal attack. Noting a factual error in a statement is NOT a death threat.
> Stating that I do something differently than you is NOT the same as saying that YOU ARE STUPID AND DOING EVERYTHING WRONG!! It is NOT saying you must do what I do.
> Opinions, if based on a misunderstanding or the ignorance of facts, can be wrong. It is not a crime against humanity to point out that an opinion is badly developed.
To be clear, what bothers me is NOT discussions but the people who believe that ANY disagreement about modeling runs counter to the mantra of "It's a hobby, it's supposed to be FUN!"
I guess I'm just getting old.
KL
This sir, means war!
Johnnych01
Joined: June 29, 2019
KitMaker: 604 posts
Armorama: 506 posts
Posted: Monday, December 23, 2019 - 08:00 PM UTC
I must be getting old .....
When I remember how I used to get decent 1/35 armour models for £15 / £25 ... then after coming back to the game after a few years away the price had gone up to £40,£50,£60 and higher .. ouch.
When I remember how I used to get decent 1/35 armour models for £15 / £25 ... then after coming back to the game after a few years away the price had gone up to £40,£50,£60 and higher .. ouch.
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Monday, December 23, 2019 - 08:14 PM UTC
Hi Kurt,
That must mean I'm getting old too ...
Sigh...
/ Robin
That must mean I'm getting old too ...
Sigh...
/ Robin
mudlark
Joined: June 18, 2019
KitMaker: 28 posts
Armorama: 27 posts
Posted: Monday, December 23, 2019 - 09:15 PM UTC
We're only old when we start yelling at the clouds
nsjohn
Joined: July 26, 2018
KitMaker: 279 posts
Armorama: 265 posts
Posted: Monday, December 23, 2019 - 09:27 PM UTC
We all are. Don't disagree with anything you say, but imho it is one of the problems with electronic forms of communication be it emails, comments on forums or, heaven forbid Facebook. In my professional life on many occasions, I would much rather telephone and speak to a client, than email them, as a verbal discussion has nuances that simply aren't there in a written communication. Electronic communication also depends on the interpretation put on it by the recipient who may well attribute any intention which wasn't there.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Monday, December 23, 2019 - 10:00 PM UTC
Quoted Text
We all are. Don't disagree with anything you say, but imho it is one of the problems with electronic forms of communication be it emails, comments on forums or, heaven forbid Facebook. In my professional life on many occasions, I would much rather telephone and speak to a client, than email them, as a verbal discussion has nuances that simply aren't there in a written communication. Electronic communication also depends on the interpretation put on it by the recipient who may well attribute any intention which wasn't there.
This. Something gets lost in translation from spoken words to typed text.
Without inflections or body language the most benign statement can become a declaration of war. Or maybe just nasty, boorish and condescending.
By the way, welcome to curmudgeon-hood.
barkingdigger
Associate Editor
#013
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,981 posts
Armorama: 3,403 posts
Posted: Monday, December 23, 2019 - 11:33 PM UTC
Well it's better to get old than to get the alternative! 
Sadly we're living in a perfect storm of human devolution due to the internet coupled with the nature of late-night surfing when most folks are at the cranky end of the working day. Then there are those for whom any comment is an invitation to a fight - in normal life we can avoid them, but on the internet they crawl out of the shadows. Nothing we can do except carry on regardless!
What's the old prayer? Give me the strength to change what I can, the patience to endure what I can't, and the wisdom to call down a fire mission for those really stubborn problems...
Sadly we're living in a perfect storm of human devolution due to the internet coupled with the nature of late-night surfing when most folks are at the cranky end of the working day. Then there are those for whom any comment is an invitation to a fight - in normal life we can avoid them, but on the internet they crawl out of the shadows. Nothing we can do except carry on regardless!
What's the old prayer? Give me the strength to change what I can, the patience to endure what I can't, and the wisdom to call down a fire mission for those really stubborn problems...
Vicious
Joined: September 04, 2015
KitMaker: 1,517 posts
Armorama: 1,109 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 24, 2019 - 12:06 AM UTC
Or maybe is just what my grumpy father in law call “ the grumpy old bastard sindrome “.... happens also to me some time then I drink couple of beers 🍺 and the the teenager in me wake up... 
..but then is my wife who become grumpy!.... 
..but then is my wife who become grumpy!.... 
d6mst0
#453
Joined: August 28, 2016
KitMaker: 1,925 posts
Armorama: 601 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 24, 2019 - 12:22 AM UTC
Yes you are old.....LOL.
southpier
Joined: December 11, 2009
KitMaker: 546 posts
Armorama: 316 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 24, 2019 - 01:51 AM UTC
reducing sodium intake and exercising 20 minutes, three time a week, has greatly increased tolerance for my fellow man.
Lakota
#123
Joined: November 17, 2008
KitMaker: 1,202 posts
Armorama: 635 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 24, 2019 - 02:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I agree. This plus there was a time when people actually knew how to write. A well-written, civil, polite, note that communicated your thoughts is a dying art.reducing sodium intake and exercising 20 minutes, three time a week, has greatly increased tolerance for my fellow man.
I've tried to improve my skills by taking on-line training in writing, grammar, communication and time management. I'm still 50+ years young and have hundreds of models in my stash that need to be built.
Take care,
Don "Lakota"
barkingdigger
Associate Editor#013
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,981 posts
Armorama: 3,403 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 24, 2019 - 03:06 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI agree. This plus there was a time when people actually knew how to write. A well-written, civil, polite, note that communicated your thoughts is a dying art.reducing sodium intake and exercising 20 minutes, three time a week, has greatly increased tolerance for my fellow man.
I've tried to improve my skills by taking on-line training in writing, grammar, communication and time management. I'm still 50+ years young and have hundreds of models in my stash that need to be built.
Take care,
Don "Lakota"
If you seriously plan to build them all then I wonder how you have time to waste on communication!
(Personally I plan to have the unbuilt residue of my stash stacked into a pyre for a Viking funeral - the folks downwind might need gas masks...)
obg153
Joined: April 07, 2009
KitMaker: 1,063 posts
Armorama: 1,049 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 24, 2019 - 04:18 AM UTC
People's ideas of "fun" vary widely, so to me, the notion of, "It's a hobby, it's supposed to be fun," shouldn't even BE a mantra, because it just sounds dismissive. As though it shouldn't matter what the results are, as long as you're "having fun." Or that just the act of doing something should be the sole reward. Fly fishing might not be fun if you never catch any fish. Woodworking might not be so fun if every table/rocker you built came out lop-sided. Gardening wouldn't be much fun if everything you planted dried up & died. I participate in this hobby because it interests me, and I can envision some level of success completing a given model. If/when those points seem to disappear, I'll either find another hobby, or just fade away.
Armorsmith
Joined: April 09, 2015
KitMaker: 1,063 posts
Armorama: 1,000 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 24, 2019 - 04:58 AM UTC
I have to disagree with you about the fun aspect Jack. Most of us come at this from the point of view of rather accomplished or at least fairly skilled modelers so we expect a certain level of results from our efforts. One of my other passions is competitive racquetball. One of the things that I have noticed is that those of us who are more skilled are much more critical of ourselves and others than the novice or beginner who doesn't really care about his mechanics or how he hits the ball but is just thrilled to hit a shot and is having a blast running around the court chasing the ball. He plays for the sheer fun and enjoyment win or loose.
Same is true of the IPMS and AMPS clubs I belong to. All different skill levels and ages. The guys that seem to have the most fun are the guys who just love to build and don't really care about all the advanced techniques and AM stuff that is available. That's not to say that we don't have fun but from our perspective these guys are killing the plants because they don't measure up to our standards. So yes there are those who do things for the sheer fun of it regardless of the results they get be it modeling, racquetball, or any other things they wish to pursue.
Personally, there are times when I envy those who can do that.
Same is true of the IPMS and AMPS clubs I belong to. All different skill levels and ages. The guys that seem to have the most fun are the guys who just love to build and don't really care about all the advanced techniques and AM stuff that is available. That's not to say that we don't have fun but from our perspective these guys are killing the plants because they don't measure up to our standards. So yes there are those who do things for the sheer fun of it regardless of the results they get be it modeling, racquetball, or any other things they wish to pursue.
Personally, there are times when I envy those who can do that.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 24, 2019 - 05:56 AM UTC
And there are a few who did the AM and detailing and thought it was fabulous.
And missed the fun.
Isn't this supposed to be a hobby? Not a vocation? I was more stressed building a model than when I was at work.
So simplify and just build and enjoy.
But that's my version of fun. Everybody is different. Do what you love and love what you do or might as well find a new hobby.
Did that too.
And missed the fun.
Isn't this supposed to be a hobby? Not a vocation? I was more stressed building a model than when I was at work.
So simplify and just build and enjoy.
But that's my version of fun. Everybody is different. Do what you love and love what you do or might as well find a new hobby.
Did that too.
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 24, 2019 - 06:11 AM UTC
Quoted Text
. . . One of the things that I have noticed is that those of us who are more skilled are much more critical of ourselves and others . . . from our perspective these guys are killing the plants because they don't measure up to our standards . . .
Those two things right there are your problem. Why do you care what anyone else does, whether it is better or worse? (More importantly, did anyone ask you to perform a critical analysis on them? Unsolicited criticism is rarely accepted gladly . . .) I can only imagine that, whether you realize it or not, you are worried about what other people think of you. If you modeled solely for your own enjoyment regardless of what others do, you'd no doubt find it more fun.
I'm very exacting with my modeling. I enjoy being exacting. It's fun for me to research, to discover how the various gadgets looked and worked, and try to replicate the details. I do this for the sheer fun of it.
I don't understand why anyone would take up with or continue with a hobby that they didn't find to be fun.
KL
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 24, 2019 - 06:20 AM UTC
Quoted Text
People's ideas of "fun" vary widely, so to me, the notion of, "It's a hobby, it's supposed to be fun," shouldn't even BE a mantra, because it just sounds dismissive.
In my experience it is spoken almost exclusively by folks who are bothered by those modelers who try to be better, those who want to improve, for example, the "rivet counters". While the rivet counters may never say anything to or about the quick builders, the quick builders act like they are under constant siege. I dare say the mantra is really code for, "Stop trying to get better because it makes me look worse."
My mantra is more along the lines of, "Stop caring about how I model because I absolutely don't care about you."
KL
vettejack
Joined: November 23, 2012
KitMaker: 1,277 posts
Armorama: 1,254 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 24, 2019 - 06:26 AM UTC
Where do I begin...
Armorsmith
Joined: April 09, 2015
KitMaker: 1,063 posts
Armorama: 1,000 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 24, 2019 - 07:19 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text. . . One of the things that I have noticed is that those of us who are more skilled are much more critical of ourselves and others . . . from our perspective these guys are killing the plants because they don't measure up to our standards . . .
Those two things right there are your problem. Why do you care what anyone else does, whether it is better or worse? (More importantly, did anyone ask you to perform a critical analysis on them? Unsolicited criticism is rarely accepted gladly . . .) I can only imagine that, whether you realize it or not, you are worried about what other people think of you. If you modeled solely for your own enjoyment regardless of what others do, you'd no doubt find it more fun.
I'm very exacting with my modeling. I enjoy being exacting. It's fun for me to research, to discover how the various gadgets looked and worked, and try to replicate the details. I do this for the sheer fun of it.
I don't understand why anyone would take up with or continue with a hobby that they didn't find to be fun.
KL
I was making a general statement not necessarily speaking for myself.
southpier
Joined: December 11, 2009
KitMaker: 546 posts
Armorama: 316 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 24, 2019 - 08:18 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Where do I begin...
well, I guess every thread starts with the first post.
Armorsmith
Joined: April 09, 2015
KitMaker: 1,063 posts
Armorama: 1,000 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 24, 2019 - 08:26 AM UTC
[quote]
I was making some general observations and not speaking about myself. You make some assumptions and draw some conclusion about me that are not correct. How one decides to build a kit,or play a game, etc. is entirely up to them. Simply making an observation does not mean that I care that something is better or worse. It is simply an observation. And while they may not build or play at the same level does not mean that I offer unsolicited advice. And believe it or not, I am long past the point where I care or worry about what people think of me. I model strictly for my own enjoyment and have always done so. In fact that's the primary reason I never post any of my work on the site. Lastly, I'm glad you enjoy modeling as you do. Those of us in the hobby I hope derive the same level of fun and satisfaction regardless of their skill level and ability.
Quoted Text
Quoted Text. . . One of the things that I have noticed is that those of us who are more skilled are much more critical of ourselves and others . . . from our perspective these guys are killing the plants because they don't measure up to our standards . . .
Those two things right there are your problem. Why do you care what anyone else does, whether it is better or worse? (More importantly, did anyone ask you to perform a critical analysis on them? Unsolicited criticism is rarely accepted gladly . . .) I can only imagine that, whether you realize it or not, you are worried about what other people think of you. If you modeled solely for your own enjoyment regardless of what others do, you'd no doubt find it more fun.
I'm very exacting with my modeling. I enjoy being exacting. It's fun for me to research, to discover how the various gadgets looked and worked, and try to replicate the details. I do this for the sheer fun of it.
I don't understand why anyone would take up with or continue with a hobby that they didn't find to be fun.
KL
I was making some general observations and not speaking about myself. You make some assumptions and draw some conclusion about me that are not correct. How one decides to build a kit,or play a game, etc. is entirely up to them. Simply making an observation does not mean that I care that something is better or worse. It is simply an observation. And while they may not build or play at the same level does not mean that I offer unsolicited advice. And believe it or not, I am long past the point where I care or worry about what people think of me. I model strictly for my own enjoyment and have always done so. In fact that's the primary reason I never post any of my work on the site. Lastly, I'm glad you enjoy modeling as you do. Those of us in the hobby I hope derive the same level of fun and satisfaction regardless of their skill level and ability.
marcb
Joined: March 25, 2006
KitMaker: 1,244 posts
Armorama: 1,226 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 24, 2019 - 08:47 AM UTC
Some people are just easily offended, and that is something that seems to become common more and more.
I saw a lecture by psychiatrist Jonathan Haidt on Youtube, who mentioned that due to social media and smaller family units, a typical 15 year old today will have about the same amount of social learning experiences as a typical 8 year old would have had thirthy years ago...
Also the post modern stance some people are taking (which even dismisses science as just an opinion), means that discussions can become long and pointless.
For modelling I can disagree on what finishing style you like, or what tanks you like, but not on decisions based on historical facts. (Fe factory details on a Panther.)
I tend to adapt my comment to the individual modeller.
I don't think you're getting old, but you're just observing a change in how people interact.
Now back to my Trumpeter KV-1 during the Moscow fighting 41/42...
I saw a lecture by psychiatrist Jonathan Haidt on Youtube, who mentioned that due to social media and smaller family units, a typical 15 year old today will have about the same amount of social learning experiences as a typical 8 year old would have had thirthy years ago...
Also the post modern stance some people are taking (which even dismisses science as just an opinion), means that discussions can become long and pointless.
For modelling I can disagree on what finishing style you like, or what tanks you like, but not on decisions based on historical facts. (Fe factory details on a Panther.)
I tend to adapt my comment to the individual modeller.
I don't think you're getting old, but you're just observing a change in how people interact.
Now back to my Trumpeter KV-1 during the Moscow fighting 41/42...
TopSmith
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,742 posts
Armorama: 1,658 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 24, 2019 - 09:19 AM UTC
I think this is moving towards the last comments I made in the grab handle thread.
Robbd01
#323
Joined: February 13, 2013
KitMaker: 791 posts
Armorama: 344 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 24, 2019 - 10:14 AM UTC
Great idea for a campaign! I am in! Oh wait! Nevermind!
Cheers
Cheers
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