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Whats the difference between Gimel and Dalet?
bots1141
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Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2020 - 01:00 AM UTC
I was wondering what the differences between the Sho't Kal Gimel and the Dalet (Gimel Type II) were? I'm looking into purchasing one of the two AFV Club kits. Thank you!






18Bravo
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Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2020 - 01:41 AM UTC
Speaking to the kits themselves, based on exterior features, it's mainly the frontal ERA array. With either kit, Legend does an an upgrade in which the ERA looks more realistic.
GuyGos
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Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2020 - 03:44 AM UTC
The Gimel type II is not Dalet.
I think the type II kit is based on Centurion Mk.3 and the earlier kit is based on Centurion Mk. 5, by the shape of the turret.

Dalet has:
A different gunner sight (similar to the M60A1 IIRC).
Thermal sleeve on the barrel.
Meteorological sensor.

I Hope I'm accurate
GTDeath13
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Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2020 - 04:23 AM UTC
Dalet: new FCS thus the new gunner sight as Guy Gos mentioned (plus the other differences), different ERA block setup at the front of the turret roof.

The differences AFV club tried to depict in their Gimel type two are mixed between depicting a different ERA setup on the glacis and vehicles based on different Centurion Mk variants.

bots1141
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Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2020 - 04:54 AM UTC
Thanks for everyones help!!! Scalehobbiest was calling the Gimel II a Dalet! Not sure why! Thats what started my confusion. And the only info for the Dalet was from the game War Thunder I did find the real AFV Club Dalet on ebay and impulse bought it!!!

GuyGos
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Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2020 - 05:00 AM UTC
Good buy
GTDeath13
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Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2020 - 05:07 AM UTC
That is a good score!!! Enjoy building the kit.
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2020 - 05:34 AM UTC
In addition to what Guy and Nikos said, the M1919s were replaced by MAGs.



RLlockie
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Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2020 - 06:33 AM UTC
You might well be correct about the IDF bits but the evolution from Cent 3 to 5 did not involve a different turret, just a different co-ax (Besa to .30 Browning). It was straightforward to switch them so changing a 3 to a 5 could be done in a single day.
GTDeath13
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Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2020 - 07:05 AM UTC

Quoted Text

You might well be correct about the IDF bits but the evolution from Cent 3 to 5 did not involve a different turret, just a different co-ax (Besa to .30 Browning). It was straightforward to switch them so changing a 3 to a 5 could be done in a single day.



Are the different oriented loader hatches a difference between the Mk3 and Mk5 or between Mk5 and Mk 5.1?
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2020 - 06:23 PM UTC
What's the difference between the Gimel and the Gimel Type II? Could it be the FCS some of them received?
GuyGos
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Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2020 - 07:37 PM UTC
What I meant by different turrets was the loader's hatch orientation and periscope location.
The differences are between Mk 3 and 5 AFAIK.
GTDeath13
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Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2020 - 10:49 PM UTC

Quoted Text

What's the difference between the Gimel and the Gimel Type II? Could it be the FCS some of them received?



The differences AFV club tried to depict in their Gimel type two are mixed between depicting a different ERA setup on the glacis and vehicles based on different Centurion Mk variants.

- In step 17 of thee instructions you use different ERA blocks for the type II (sinle row of blocks compared to a double row of blocks)

- In step 22 you have a new turret roof with inclined loader's hatch and a periscope opening on the top left corner of the roof (just forward if the loader's hatch)

- In steep 33 you use FN Mags instad of .30 cals

These are the differences in the two kits. The Gimmel type II kit includs ALL the sprues of the Gimel 1982 plus sprue Z(new turret roof and sides) and W(new ERA blocks).
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2020 - 11:06 PM UTC
So in reality were they considered by the IDF as separate subtypes based on their different ERA blocks layouts, or only AFV Club differentiate them as such?
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2020 - 11:16 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

What's the difference between the Gimel and the Gimel Type II? Could it be the FCS some of them received?



The differences AFV club tried to depict in their Gimel type two are mixed between depicting a different ERA setup on the glacis and vehicles based on different Centurion Mk variants.

- In step 17 of thee instructions you use different ERA blocks for the type II (sinle row of blocks compared to a double row of blocks)

- In step 22 you have a new turret roof with inclined loader's hatch and a periscope opening on the top left corner of the roof (just forward if the loader's hatch)

- In steep 33 you use FN Mags instad of .30 cals

These are the differences in the two kits. The Gimmel type II kit includs ALL the sprues of the Gimel 1982 plus sprue Z(new turret roof and sides) and W(new ERA blocks).



So in theory I could build four different variants, 2 turrets x 2 ERA layouts?
GTDeath13
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Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2020 - 11:42 PM UTC

Quoted Text


So in theory I could build four different variants, 2 turrets x 2 ERA layouts?



Exactly, you can build a Shot Kal Gimel based on a Mk 3 or Mk 5/5.1 Centurion with two types of front glacis armor and different machineguns for the commander and loader
GTDeath13
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Posted: Saturday, July 18, 2020 - 11:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text

So in reality were they considered by the IDF as separate subtypes based on their different ERA blocks layouts, or only AFV Club differentiate them as such?



I think AFV used the type II term to show that it is a different kit
ReluctantRenegade
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Posted: Sunday, July 19, 2020 - 12:31 AM UTC
Are the optics different?
RLlockie
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Posted: Sunday, July 19, 2020 - 12:44 AM UTC
No, the loader’s hatch orientation change was to permit removal of the 20pdr breech ring through the roof rather than requiring the hatch in the turret rear which was on the early turrets. It was therefore just an evolution in the design (like the loader’s periscope on the sloping front of the turret roof or the side-opening trackguard bins) which did not, of itself, entail a change of mark number.

It is similar to the way that adding a loader’s hatch to the Sherman turret did not involve the designation of the vehicle being changed.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Sunday, July 19, 2020 - 01:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


So in theory I could build four different variants, 2 turrets x 2 ERA layouts?



Exactly, you can build a Shot Kal Gimel based on a Mk 3 or Mk 5/5.1 Centurion with two types of front glacis armor and different machineguns for the commander and loader



Thanks! Now I have a reason to build the Legend conversion and the AFV-Club kit. I bought the Legend conversion a few years before AFV-Club informed the world about their plans for a Dalet
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