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When did the Leitkreuz go into service?
GazzaS
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Posted: Monday, August 10, 2020 - 07:35 PM UTC
Hi friends,
It took me quite a while to figure out the leitkreuz. Does anyone know when it first came into use?

I've built two relatively modern Bundeswehr vehicles with it on, and now I'm building an Early M-47, Circa 1955.

Thanks for the help in advance,

Gaz
Frenchy
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Posted: Monday, August 10, 2020 - 09:46 PM UTC
According to Panzerbaer.de the first M47's were delivered in January 1956 :

http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/bw_mkpz_m47-a.htm

H.P.
petbat
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Posted: Monday, August 10, 2020 - 09:54 PM UTC
Hi Gaz. 1955 is a tad early.

Tankograd has a volume 5002 The early years of the Modern German Army and it it, it says the first active service unit of the new PanzerTruppe was not created until April 1956 and it was a training battalion in Munster. Other units came into being later in the Summer 1956.

The Kreuz symbol was seen on aircraft right from the get go, but the armoured units didn't start applying them much until a few years later - say 1959-60. Most of the pics of M47 inthe Tankograd publication show no cross. Often there are no turret markings in pics or just a 3 digit number on the turret.


Frenchy
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Posted: Monday, August 10, 2020 - 10:33 PM UTC
Peter, I guess Gary is asking about this :


Looks like it's missing in the period pics you've posted...

H.P.

canismalus
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Posted: Monday, August 10, 2020 - 11:33 PM UTC
Hi everybody,

Gaz isn‘t asking about the schwarzes Kreuz, which is the German national marking (West German during the Cold War, of course) that the Bundeswehr has used starting in the 1950s:



The Leitkreuz is a road march light mounted on the rear of pretty much all Bundeswehr vehicles:





I don‘t know exactly when the BW started using them, but I think I‘ve narrowed it down. This picture of an M47 at Grafenwöhr is from 1967 and there is no Leitkreuz mounted:



In the following film, though, also from 1967, the vehicles on maneuver have them mounted:

https://youtu.be/bWlWLcav5v0

I looked at some more photos from the first half of the 1960s and the Leitkreuz wasn‘t installed, so I would guess that it was introduced at some point after 1965. Maybe someone who knows better can jump in and name a year.

Jerry

P.S. If you‘re at all interested in the Bundeswehr, check out their videos on YouTube. Especially the ones from the ‘60s and the ‘70s are a hoot.
canismalus
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Posted: Monday, August 10, 2020 - 11:56 PM UTC
Henri-Pierre, you beat me to the post while I was watching Bundeswehr videos! A tortoise-and-the-hare type of scenario, I guess.

Jerry
barkingdigger
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ARMORAMA
#013
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Posted: Tuesday, August 11, 2020 - 12:55 AM UTC
I thought it came in with the Leopard in 1965, and was presumably retrofitted to older vehicles during depot maintenance? No direct evidence, but from photos that timeframe seems about right.
petbat
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Posted: Tuesday, August 11, 2020 - 09:15 AM UTC
Err.... okay, my mistake. Sorry Gaz.
GazzaS
#424
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Posted: Tuesday, August 11, 2020 - 03:35 PM UTC
Thank you everyone for the informative and well meant posts. Just the stuff I needed. My M47 is dressed as an early vehicle without smoke launchers or other materials added to the turret.

The Takom kit comes with all of that, but none of that gear fit the Bundeswehr figures I got from Dolp which are in the very early uniforms.

So, now I can can continue my build.

Thank you!
ptruhe
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Posted: Wednesday, August 12, 2020 - 01:52 AM UTC
The leitkreuz mount bracket on the circular access plate is often seen empty on the M47. Not present on delivery, appearance may correlate with other late service changes like additional rear lights/reflectors.
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