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What Was The Most Seen Variant Of The M4 Sherman In W.W.II PTO
screamingeagle
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Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2002 - 10:00 AM UTC
Hi All ! - I'm interested in this because I am thinking of building the M4 after I finish
my M18. But I want the most common variant that was seen in the Pacific with
U.S. Marines in early 1945.
Also were most, or all fitted with the 76mm & HVSS at this time ?
Can anyone also suggest the best possible Model Kit for this ?
Thanks
- ralph
staff_Jim
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Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2002 - 12:13 PM UTC
I will leave it to those who know. But my money is on the Flame version. That one came in handy in a pinch!

I thought though that PTO really didn't see the newest and best Shermans. Being that they really were being used against infantry, pillboxes, and the like. Could be wrong on that though.

Jim
Sabot
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Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2002 - 12:41 PM UTC
Actually, the Marines used the 75mm armed gun. The 76mm was developed to combat other tanks. The PTO did not have a lot of enemy armor to defeat and the 75mm was a better infantry support weapon than the high-velocity 76mm.

USMC armor units are lower on the totem pole than US Army armor units. They got the left overs. Their most common tank was the M4A2 75mm followed by the M4A3 75mm as they became available. Additionally, high mobility on the battlefield was not a USMC tank requirement (no great vasts of open plains to maneuver on) so they mainly used the VVSS suspension system.

As far as flame tanks, USMC tank battalions consisted of 46 tanks (15 per company, 3 companies per battalion+1 for the battalion commander). One tank per company was a dozer tank. Later during the war, the battalions were given 9 flame tanks. These are the POA-CWS which stands for Pacific Ocean Area-Chemical Warfare System. The flame-armed Sherman used initially by the Marines was the M4A2 POS-CWS '75'. This type of tank fired the flame out the main gun. There were variants that fired flame from the bow gun mount and others that used the coaxial MG port. Only the USMC used the type of flame gun that fired out of the main gun.
RufusLeeking
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Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2002 - 09:27 PM UTC
Rob,
Where there any flame throwing tanks used in the ETO? I don't remember reading or seeing anything on them. Was thinking maybe in Italy.
Sabot
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Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2002 - 09:47 PM UTC
Yes, I have a picture of one being tested in the Hurtgen Forest in Germany.
screamingeagle
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Posted: Monday, February 11, 2002 - 11:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Actually, the Marines used the 75mm armed gun. The 76mm was developed to combat other tanks. The PTO did not have a lot of enemy armor to defeat and the 75mm was a better infantry support weapon than the high-velocity 76mm.

USMC armor units are lower on the totem pole than US Army armor units. They got the left overs. Their most common tank was the M4A2 75mm followed by the M4A3 75mm as they became available. Additionally, high mobility on the battlefield was not a USMC tank requirement (no great vasts of open plains to maneuver on) so they mainly used the VVSS suspension system.

As far as flame tanks, USMC tank battalions consisted of 46 tanks (15 per company, 3 companies per battalion+1 for the battalion commander). One tank per company was a dozer tank. Later during the war, the battalions were given 9 flame tanks. These are the POA-CWS which stands for Pacific Ocean Area-Chemical Warfare System. The flame-armed Sherman used initially by the Marines was the M4A2 POS-CWS '75'. This type of tank fired the flame out the main gun. There were variants that fired flame from the bow gun mount and others that used the coaxial MG port. Only the USMC used the type of flame gun that fired out of the main gun.



Thanks Rob ! 2 More questions:

1) Was the bow gun, the smaller gun barrell mounted on the mantle next to the 75mm ?

2) I was reading a book on Normandy, and there was a Tank battle being fought - They used an expression saying the Tanks were in a " HULL"S DOWN POSITION ".
Can you please tell me what that phrase means ?
Thanks, - ralph
Sabot
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Posted: Monday, February 11, 2002 - 11:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

1) Was the bow gun, the smaller gun barrell mounted on the mantle next to the 75mm ?

No, the bow gun is the hull mounted machine gun operated by the assistant driver.

Quoted Text

2) I was reading a book on Normandy, and there was a Tank battle being fought - They used an expression saying the Tanks were in a " HULL"S DOWN POSITION ".
Can you please tell me what that phrase means ?

When a tank is in a hull down position, it has taken a defensive position where the hull is covered by a terrain feature and only the turret is visable/exposed to enemy fire. A turret down position is when the turret is also below a terrain feature, only the optics or commander's head would be showing. These are mainly defensive terms when a tank is in a prepared battle position, or while a tank is maneuvering, it stops in a hull down position to provide cover fire for other advancing vehicles.

The version of the tank that has the smaller diameter tube next to the main gun (that is the coax machine gun position) is the POA-CWS-H5. That flame thrower is mounted coaxially to the main gun, which was the 105mm howitzer, not the 75mm gun. DML/Dragon does a nice kit of this, the M4A3 HVSS POA-CWS-H5 #6807.
Kencelot
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Posted: Monday, February 11, 2002 - 11:56 AM UTC
Not to cut in on you Rob, but isn't that used to describe when keeping the tanks from rising on a crest and exposing it's "belly"???
Sabot
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Posted: Monday, February 11, 2002 - 10:30 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Not to cut in on you Rob, but isn't that used to describe when keeping the tanks from rising on a crest and exposing it's "belly"???

Shame on you. Check out page 4-17 on FM 17-15 Tank Platoon, the bible for tank platoon operations. (New manual is called FM 3-20.15). I will e-mail .gif file of the hull down, turret down and hide positions to you and Ralph.
Kencelot
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Posted: Monday, February 11, 2002 - 10:47 PM UTC
EEEEEEEEEEEkk! (head hanging low) Man, I really need to elaborate on some of my questions. In WWII terms, I've heard people saying the importance of maintaining a hull down position. I'll have to find the book, but they were refering to the battles in the hedge-rows. Saying that when the tanks came raging through the hedgerow, the tank's bellies would be exposed for a brief moment, making them extremly vulnerable for just a moment the Germans were waiting for. I ...eeeek, I need to get away from this site and just build models...hehe
screamingeagle
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Posted: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 - 03:48 AM UTC
Hi Rob ! Thanks for the emailed illustrations.
I'm glad you are up on Armor reference. Your knowledge
will be of great assistance for future Armor projects
- ralph
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