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AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
Iwata HP-CH clogging while used with vallejo?
dronek75
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Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 12:19 PM UTC
i was just working on a camouflage on Panther tank (very beginner with airbrushing) with my new iwata hp-ch. I have used Vallejo thinned with distilled water and maybe after 7-10 minutes of airbrushing my airbrush got clogged stopping me from finishing so i ended up taking it apart and cleaning airbrush through with Tamiya thinner. Is it even a good combo to use vallejo thinned with distilled water and an airbrush? I also have Tamiya acrylics along with their thinner ( i think it's called X-20) and lot of MM enamels with their thinner. Should i thin it with something else since vallejo +distiled water = no go with airbrush at all.
Thanks for help guys. cheers

P.S.
Everything was coming out great ( airbrushing is awesome ) until soon a airbrush got clogged. Tip of a needle was all like powdered/covered with dry paint and every time i cleaned the tip of a needle after a few minutes it got clogged again making me go so i stopped, cleaned my airbrush and came here for help
Greg
dronek75
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Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 02:56 PM UTC
I did the camo using Tamiya acrylics...and everything was perfect (i thinned in about 60-40 thinner to paint), so obviously I'm doing something wrong trying to use vallejo thinned with distiled water. Also i have one more question...since it's problematic for me to use Tamiya Primer out of can i would rather use something i can spray with an airbrush. IS there anything good, how to thin it and is it safe for an airbrush?
thanks guys
SSGToms
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Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 06:56 PM UTC
Great primer - Krylon grey in the rattle can.
Save yourself a LOT of money and thin Tamiya and MM Acryl with $1 a gallon blue windshield washer fluid.
If your airbrush clogs, clean it out with Windex. Also, after each session, shoot Windex through it until clear. You don't have to take it apart every time. This saves a lot of needles.
If paint builds up on the needle, clean it off with a Q-Tip soaked in Windex.
You can buy acrylic extender at a craft or art store like Michael's. It will make the Vallejo dry slower and eliminate your airbrush problems.
KamilS
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Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 07:12 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I have used Vallejo thinned with distilled water



that's the reason of Your problems. water is not a good thinner when You want to use vallejo for airbrushing. in that case some retarder is necessary. vallejo thinner contains some of it, and IMO its best liquid for thinnig vallejo for airbrushing.

BTW- best for thinning Tamiya acrylics is "Mr. Color Leveling Thinner" from Gunze.
petros
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Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 07:16 PM UTC
Vallejo thinned with distilled water and an airbrush is not a good combination.
That is why there is the Vallejo Air series.
Maybe you should use windex as a thinner with "simple" Vallejo
petros

KamilS
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Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 07:24 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Maybe you should use windex as a thinner with "simple" Vallejo



it will be useless for vallejo, if it contains alcohol
Bigskip
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Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 08:17 PM UTC
How about using vallejo thinner???

I may be a bit old fashioned, but i always use the correct acrylic thinner for the paint i'm using, a bit expensive maybe, but you get good results.

Enamels are a different matter - they all get thinned with cellulose thinners.

Andy
antoniop
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Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 09:36 PM UTC
I use Vallejo with water and I use use a little trick for avoiding this.

For very thin camo I need to use a low pressure and this leads to the accumulation of paint on the needle tip. Vallejo dries very fast.

After every two or 3 minutes I dip the tip in water and dry it on a paper towel. This way the needle will stay clean even after 20-30 minutes of use (sometimes it takes me even more time.

Most of the times I even take out the crown cap (the last conical section of the AB.

You can use thinner to do this but dipping it in water seems to be more than enough.

Vallejo does not "like" alcohol nor Tamiya thinner. It becomes a strange paste that'll clog up you Iwata real well
BTW I use an HP-C
Pedro
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Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 09:45 PM UTC
I never had any problems with vallejo's thinned with tap water in my airbrush. It never clogged inside of it, even when I left my HP-C+ loaded with vallejo for some 20 minutes. The build up on the needle tip is a normal thing and very easy to clean with a Q -tip as Matthew suggests. Acrylic retarder/extender seems the best solution if you want the paint to dry slower.

Greg
viper29_ca
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Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 02:21 AM UTC
First of all.....how much are you thinning the Vallejo paint???

If you are using the regular Model Color Vallejos, they need to be thinned about 60-80 parts thinner to 20-40 parts paint. Pretty much the exact opposite of any other paint.

For the best results, use Vallejo thinner to thin Vallejo paints, not only does it thin the paint better than anything else, it also contains a small amount of retarder which will help with the drying of the paint.

If you don't like thinning out the Vallejo paint, buy the Vallejo Air line of paint that is pre-thinned for airbrushing in the bottle. Its good for base coats the way it is, but you will still need to thin it down some if you are going to be doing some free hand camo, or some special effects with it. The only thing with the Air line is that there aren't as many colors available as there is in the Model Line, so you might not find an exact match in the Air Line.
musicwerks
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Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 02:41 AM UTC
Hi Greg,

I get the same problem, thats why I only use villejo for handbrushing only (good stuff, no brush marks)

a) Did you use your same airbrush with thinner medium earlier, even with the old stain from the previous job, vallejio will clog up. Suggest you use 2 airbrush, one for vallejio the other for thinner such as Tamiya, gunze.

b) Use window cleaner, windex (those with ammonia content), should thin your vallejio stuff. Also use a higher air pressure to prevent clogging. It works, but compromises your fine camo lines

Rgds
Music.
dronek75
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Posted: Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 11:04 AM UTC
Hmmm I have been thinning vallejo with distilled water in about 50/50 maybe a bit more water. I was just looking for a thinner on the net and have found something called "Vallejo 161 Model Air Thinner" is this what i need to thin to be able to use it with airbrush? It might be a dummy question but last year i have bought like 60+ colors of vallejo for figure painting and they are great for that, but now i'm more into armor and would like to use them before they get too old


Thanks for the tip of thinning tamiya with the stuff for windshield.
viper29_ca
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Posted: Friday, March 14, 2008 - 04:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text

"Vallejo 161 Model Air Thinner"



Hey there Gregory,

While this is marketed to be used with Vallejo's Air Line of paint, it, just like their thinner in their Model Line, and in their Game Line of paints, are all the same. So you should be able to use that with your Vallejo Paint no problem.

Guys there is no difference in thinning Vallejo Paint, than any other paint, you are still looking for that paint consistency like skim milk. If your Vallejo Paint is gumming up your airbrush, its hasn't been thinned enough. I have been using it for years, and now sell it as my main line of paint in my hobby shop. The only difference in thinning it, is that it takes alot more thinner to get the Vallejo Model Paint to the consistency of skim milk, then say Tamiya or Gunze paint does. Your ratios of thinner to paint are different, but the end result is the same.

I have no problems thinning my Vallejo paint down, dropping my airpressure to 5-8lbs of air and painting very fine lines with it.

If you are using a glass bottle to mix you paint in, the paint (no matter the brand) is thinned enough when you tilt you bottle, and then place it back flat, the paint on the side of the bottle coats the side of the bottle, but is slightly transparent, thus the consistency of skim milk.

Whether that means thinning your Tamiya 50/50, your Gunze 50/50, or thinning your Vallejo 70/30 thinner to paint, the end result should still be the same.....you are looking for that skim milk consistency!!
spade_n_nade
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Posted: Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 11:32 PM UTC
Dont bother with windscreen wash get your self pure isopropanol. Like many other chemicals which modellers get ripped off buying in tiny bottles from manufacturers, the best thing to do is find out what they are made of and buy yourself non-branded substances. The thinner tamiya sell for their "acrylics" (they are not really acrylics or water would be fine for thinning them) is isopropanol. You can get 5 litre cartons of it from ebay or your chemist. I got one for £12 which should literally last me years/decades and I think a whole bundle of money. Its better than windscreen wash because it is not diluted with other chemicals. Honestly get yourself a big tub of isopropanol and you wont regret it. I havent tried it with Vallejo's "model air" yet but it should also work with it.

A few more isopropanol tips. Firstly you are best diluting thinner with paint to 70-30 ratios for base coats and even more dilute with detail work such as camo. If you notice that paint is starting to cling to the needle then the paint is probably needs further dilution. You will need to build up coasts this way but diluting it to this level and above will make your airbrush much easier to clean and give better finishes. Secondly, if the paint is clogging - provided you dont think you are going to bash your airbrush - take the nozzle tip off so the needle is exposed, keep some isopropanol on hand with a paint brush and if you notice the needle start to clog then just give it a wipe with the brush. I found this a big time saver. Thirdly, if your tamiya paint is running low and you only have the thick paint left at the bottom of the jar then just pour in some isopropnal to dilute it (that's what tamiya do) and you'll have yourself a new paint pot with no money spent.

Cheers,

Owen
allycat
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Posted: Friday, March 21, 2008 - 03:08 AM UTC
Owen,
I have scoured the Chemists in my area trying to find pure Isoprpyl alcohol 'by the litre'. Do you have the name of a chemist chain that stock it?
Another question for everyone: Is Isopropyl the same as Ethanol? I've some windscreen washer additive I use to thin paint that contains Ethanol and it works OK I'd just like to see how pure isopropyl compares.
Tom
spade_n_nade
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Posted: Friday, March 21, 2008 - 03:34 AM UTC
Hi Tom, Im not 100% sure about this so dont quote me but I dont think ispropanol/isopropyl is the same thing as ethanol. I bought my isproponal off ebay (a bit annoying as P&P was 2/3 the price of the isopropanol, meaning I paid £20 in total). Still, calculating that tamiya acrylioc thinner retails for £4.50 for 250ml on Hannants. For me to buy 5ltr of tamiya thinner would cost me £90 - so a considerable saving has been made!

I got mine from:

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/All-Your-Chemical-Needs

I must mention though I have just tested it out with Vallejo Model Air and it doesnt work. What I have found works well with vallejo model air (and much cheaper than vallejo's thinner) is Liquitex acrylic airbrush medium(available in art supply shops). I bought about 1/2 ltr for ten pounds a few years back and it is the same consistency as vallejo's own brand. It works well airbrushing using the following approximate ratios: 60-70% airbrush medium 10-15% distilled water and 20-30% vallejo model air paint.
allycat
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Posted: Friday, March 21, 2008 - 03:37 AM UTC
Cheers Owen.
I'll keep looking and if I find a retail outlet I'll let everyonr know
Tom
spade_n_nade
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Posted: Friday, March 21, 2008 - 03:41 AM UTC
By the way Tom if you use Gunze Sangyo's "Mr Surfacer" get some acetone from the ebay store I directed you to. Acetone is the same stuff as Gunze's "Mr Thinner" so you can make yourself a saving here as well. If you dilute the Mr Surfacer with acetone down to around 20-30% of its original consistency and spray it on with your airbrush it makes for a fantastic primer base.

PS I have no connection with the store in question!
beepboop
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Posted: Friday, March 21, 2008 - 04:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi Tom, Im not 100% sure about this so dont quote me but I dont think ispropanol/isopropyl is the same thing as ethanol. I bought my isproponal off ebay (a bit annoying as P&P was 2/3 the price of the isopropanol, meaning I paid £20 in total). Still, calculating that tamiya acrylioc thinner retails for £4.50 for 250ml on Hannants. For me to buy 5ltr of tamiya thinner would cost me £90 - so a considerable saving has been made!

I got mine from:

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/All-Your-Chemical-Needs



That's very interesting stuff, thanks for the link and the info. Buying chemicals in the UK is a real b*tch, and I've never found somewhere that will retail Isopropyl alcohol.

I've often hear that Tamiya Thinner (X20 type for acrylics) simply is isopropyl alcohol, merely sold on at a huge premium. Do you happen to know if this is true?

Also, whilst on the subject, the mystery thickens when you discover that Tamiya "acrylics" are nothing of the sort. I read in the recently featured article by Adam Wilder (who, to my mind, produces some of the most realistic-looking models out there today) that he will only use the Tamiya Lacquer thinner with Tamiya 'acrylics', since you get a smoother flow and less of that "sandpaper" effect that sometimes comes along with spraying the XF series.

To finish off with a small rant - I never know why model shops don't simply carry stock of useful modelling products. They should all have bottles of Klear/Future on sale, along with standard chemicals that are useful (like Isopropyl alcohol!), hair-spray, disposable nail-files etc. etc. Instead, you only find out about these products online, and then have to hunt about for them. Really, you'd think model shops would have some interest in providing this added value to their customers!

spade_n_nade
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Posted: Friday, March 21, 2008 - 04:38 AM UTC
I hear what you are saying about the difficulty of buying chemicals I think the internet is the place to go. I tend to find that if there is a chemical I need I just type its name into ebay and there is usually someone selling it. Cammetts are the only "model" paraphernalia retailer I know of which sell isopropanol. Although even here they've obviously bought large vats of it and marked it up selling re-packaged stuff in smaller quantities (they are better value wise than tamiya though). I dont why other model shops dont stock more non-branded items/ Johnson's Klear etc.. . You think it would be a good way for them to get an edge over their rivals. Guess like tamiya they'd also prefer us to buy a bottle of thinner once every few months rather than once every 10 years.

I havent bought tamiya's thinner in a while but from what I remember from memory, it smells the same as isopropanol. Eitherway Ive found isoproponal dilutes tamiya paint very well and you know has not been diluted with non-alcohol substances which most, if not all, windscreen washes have
allycat
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Posted: Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 11:34 PM UTC
Ian,
I've read the same article. That's why I'm curious to know if that sanding effect happens with pure isopropyl. It could be something else in the screen washer fluid that makes the sand effect happen.
A near neighbour to me is an industrial chemist. When I see him next I'll pick his brains to see if he knows (or can obtain) isopropyl anywhere.
Tom
flatfour
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Posted: Monday, September 07, 2020 - 11:46 PM UTC
I agree with Bigskip, thinners are manufactured to be used with specific products, so I would always use the paint makers thinners.
RobinNilsson
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