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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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M1A1 155mm Howitzer Prime Mover???
bots1141
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Posted: Sunday, February 28, 2016 - 01:03 PM UTC
Would the CCKW have been used to move the M1A1 155mm? I was thinking of getting Tamiya's 2.5 ton truck with Bronco's M1A1 but I'm not sure if that was a true match? I would love to use an M5 HST, but I can't find seem to find any in plastic and the Diamond T and 666 are out of my price range. I've already used the M35 with my 8 inch and the M4 HST with my Long Tom. Any suggestions???
Vodnik
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Posted: Sunday, February 28, 2016 - 01:30 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Would the CCKW have been used to move the M1A1 155mm? I was thinking of getting Tamiya's 2.5 ton truck with Bronco's M1A1 but I'm not sure if that was a true match? I would love to use an M5 HST, but I can't find seem to find any in plastic and the Diamond T and 666 are out of my price range. I've already used the M35 with my 8 inch and the M4 HST with my Long Tom. Any suggestions???


I don't think so - 2.5 ton truck like CCKW would not tow such a heavy weapon (12800 lb).
ziggyfoos
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Posted: Sunday, February 28, 2016 - 04:35 PM UTC

Quoted Text

M35 with my 8 inch



I don't think an M35 would even be able to move the big 8in? M35 is a 2.5t too like the CCKW, the 8in/Long Tom is even heavier than the M1A1 (almost double I think).
ericadeane
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Posted: Sunday, February 28, 2016 - 05:32 PM UTC
Steve: Only guessing but I think when Rich mentioned an "M35 hauling an 8" howitzer", he was referring to the M35 High Speed Tractor -- the converted M10A1 Gun Motor carriage which was transformed into an HST with the removal of the turret and the addition of the air brake systems.

Not the M35 2.5ton truck.

Rich: the dedicated Prime Movers for the M1A1 155mm howitzer were the M5 HST and the 4-ton Diamond T 968 truck. Supposedly a plastic M5 is forthcoming -- and the 968 can be had (with shipping) for about $42 off of ebay if you're patient.
bots1141
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Posted: Sunday, February 28, 2016 - 05:41 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Steve: Only guessing but I think when Rich mentioned an "M35 hauling an 8" howitzer", he was referring to the M35 High Speed Tractor -- the converted M10A1 Gun Motor carriage which was transformed into an HST with the removal of the turret and the addition of the air brake systems.

Not the M35 2.5ton truck.



Correct. I forgot that there was also a truck known as the M35.
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
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Posted: Monday, February 29, 2016 - 01:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Would the CCKW have been used to move the M1A1 155mm? I was thinking of getting Tamiya's 2.5 ton truck with Bronco's M1A1 but I'm not sure if that was a true match? I would love to use an M5 HST, but I can't find seem to find any in plastic and the Diamond T and 666 are out of my price range. I've already used the M35 with my 8 inch and the M4 HST with my Long Tom. Any suggestions???


I don't think so - 2.5 ton truck like CCKW would not tow such a heavy weapon (12800 lb).



I've moved a 155 howitzer with an M35, but for less than a hundred fifty feet. A five ton or heavier is correct. They had a 7.5 ton truck in WWII, and one maybe the right choice.

Remember the M1a1 thru the M114 is un-sprung, and really taxes a truck's chassis on the road. Gets real bad on a dirt or gravel road. Even a five ton gets bounced around towing 12K behind it bouncing around, but at least stays together.
gary
trickymissfit
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Posted: Monday, February 29, 2016 - 01:32 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Steve: Only guessing but I think when Rich mentioned an "M35 hauling an 8" howitzer", he was referring to the M35 High Speed Tractor -- the converted M10A1 Gun Motor carriage which was transformed into an HST with the removal of the turret and the addition of the air brake systems.

Not the M35 2.5ton truck.

Rich: the dedicated Prime Movers for the M1A1 155mm howitzer were the M5 HST and the 4-ton Diamond T 968 truck. Supposedly a plastic M5 is forthcoming -- and the 968 can be had (with shipping) for about $42 off of ebay if you're patient.



I've never seen a photo of the M35 prime mover towing a 155 howitzer, but can see this going thru deep mud and snow. Normally a 155 is towed via truck(s) for one good reason. You take the crew with the gun. Then a second truck brings ammo and powder.

I've done road marches with towed howitzers, and just getting everything there can often be a bear. More than once we had to actually borrow two or three five ton trucks to haul ammo. A gun with no projos and powder is useless. Road marches are never fun, and can be thought of as dangerous.
gary
ericadeane
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Posted: Monday, February 29, 2016 - 01:41 AM UTC
Gary: You're commenting mistakenly like Steve in the 3rd post. Rich is NOT talking about an M35 truck. He's talking about the fully tracked M35 High Speed Tractor -- based off of a Sherman chassis. That was fully capable of hauling a M1A1 155mm howitzer.

AFV Club made a model of one.
27-1025
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Posted: Monday, February 29, 2016 - 03:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Gary: You're commenting mistakenly like Steve in the 3rd post. Rich is NOT talking about an M35 truck. He's talking about the fully tracked M35 High Speed Tractor -- based off of a Sherman chassis. That was fully capable of hauling a M1A1 155mm howitzer.

AFV Club made a model of one.



This:
27-1025
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Posted: Monday, February 29, 2016 - 03:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Would the CCKW have been used to move the M1A1 155mm? I was thinking of getting Tamiya's 2.5 ton truck with Bronco's M1A1 but I'm not sure if that was a true match? I would love to use an M5 HST, but I can't find seem to find any in plastic and the Diamond T and 666 are out of my price range. I've already used the M35 with my 8 inch and the M4 HST with my Long Tom. Any suggestions???



I'm in the same boat. Pretty much limited to an M5 HST or the Mack No 6 7 1/2 ton truck as a prime mover. They called it the 'pig' with good reason.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Monday, February 29, 2016 - 03:59 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm in the same boat. Pretty much limited to an M5 HST or the Mack No 6 7 1/2 ton truck as a prime mover.



Neither the M35 Prime Mover (not called an HST) nor the Mack NO were used as the prime mover for the M1 155mm Howitzer. Like stated above, only the M5 HST and the Diamond T 968 truck were its prime mover.





The M4 HST and the Mack NO were prime movers for the larger M2 155mm "Long Tom" Howitzer (AFV Club's post WWII M59).



The M35 Prime Mover was used to pull the larger M1 8" Gun, which I don't think is available in kit form.


The M115 8" Howitzer was also pulled by the M4 HST.
bots1141
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Posted: Monday, February 29, 2016 - 04:50 AM UTC
Are there any M5 HST's available in 1/35?
HeavyArty
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Posted: Monday, February 29, 2016 - 04:54 AM UTC
The only one I know if is the Hobby Fan one in resin. I'm not sure it is still available though.

bots1141
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Posted: Monday, February 29, 2016 - 05:08 AM UTC
Wow! They want $123 for the M5 on ebay. Maybe I will just break down and get the Mirror Models Diamond T. The price seems a little high but I like how it comes if the vacuum formed canvas cover. Thanks for all the info!!!
trickymissfit
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Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 - 01:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Gary: You're commenting mistakenly like Steve in the 3rd post. Rich is NOT talking about an M35 truck. He's talking about the fully tracked M35 High Speed Tractor -- based off of a Sherman chassis. That was fully capable of hauling a M1A1 155mm howitzer.

AFV Club made a model of one.



I understood that, but the only 2.5 ton truck I have ever been around is the M35a1. The M35 prime mover (tracked) was what I was thinking about when your going thru deep mud or snow. Yet I believe you spoke of the M5 high speed tractor, and this would have been the best (I assume it will also carry the gun crew).

Now the gist of my post was to point out that the "pig" was pretty hard on towing equipment, and a 5 ton truck was about right. Plus anykind of a 2.5 ton truck was a no-no. My reference to moving an M114 (pretty much the same gun) was to pull it out of the parapit to make some repairs the platform we shot off of. Probably less than a hundred feet in reality.

In reality we both agree
gary
trickymissfit
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Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 - 01:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I'm in the same boat. Pretty much limited to an M5 HST or the Mack No 6 7 1/2 ton truck as a prime mover.



Neither the M35 Prime Mover (not called an HST) nor the Mack NO were used as the prime mover for the M1 155mm Howitzer. Like stated above, only the M5 HST and the Diamond T 968 truck were its prime mover.





The M4 HST and the Mack NO were prime movers for the larger M2 155mm "Long Tom" Howitzer (AFV Club's post WWII M59).



The M35 Prime Mover was used to pull the larger M1 8" Gun, which I don't think is available in kit form.


The M115 8" Howitzer was also pulled by the M4 HST.



Got a good laugh at the guy riding on the trails of that howitzer!!! I bet he hurt all over everytime they hit a pot hole in the road. He had to be aching all over.

A typical truck hauling 300 rounds of ammo, plus enough powder to shoot these rounds will be very loaded. You can do this with a 2.5 ton truck, but you won't go very far. We did it every now and then, but also didn't go more than 400 yards at a low speed. The 4 ton would be ideal, and of course the bigger truck. I mentioned the 7.5 ton because it came to mind first, and I know what it's like to tow the Pig.

Just a side note about towing the M1 thru M114. You never take the gun out on the road with the firing lock in place. NEVER! You stuff rags in the hole. You will note in the picture that there is a canvas cover over the front half of the gun. Always used it. We would cover the breech end as well, but not everybody did. On the road the pentelscope was removed and not kept with the gun like the firing lock. We went so far as to leave the spades off the gun, and put them on another truck. I the idea is to make the gun non-shoot able.
gary
Kevlar06
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Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 - 05:08 AM UTC
It certainly would not have been an M35 truck, as the M35 was the more modern development of the M135 series truck that didn't come along until 1949. The M5 HST or Diamond T truck was the most common prime mover for the M1A1 carriage/155mm gun through the Korean war. Ampersand's HST book has a great photo of 155mm M1A1s being towed by both Diamond T and the M5A1 tractor (pg 70) in Korea. By the way, don't try and make sense of the number designation for the M4 and M5 HST, as the M5 came first. The M5 HST also uses track components of the M3/M5 light tank, whereas the M4 HST uses M4 Sherman track components. As was correctly stated above, the M4 was designated for the larger/heavier M1 "Long Tom" and M115 8" Howitzer (along with the Mack NO). The M35 could be used to tow the huge fixed position 240mm Howitzer, but the M6 HST was designated as the prime mover for the 240mm (think of a longer beefier M4). I think the M35 was a stop gap until the M6 arrived.
As a side note, I was assigned to the 9th DIVARTY in 1981 and the M54 5 ton truck was being replaced by the M923 series 5 ton truck to tow the M114 "pig"-- the modern equivalent of the M1A1. This could be where the confusion started regarding wheeled prime movers, as almost all post-Korean war trail artillery were towed with either an M35 2.5 ton (105mm in light and abn. divisions) or the M54/923 series 5 ton trucks. VR, Russ
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 - 05:29 AM UTC

Quoted Text

It certainly would not have been an M35 truck, as the M35 was the more modern development of the M135 series truck that didn't come along until 1949. Russ


Small correction. The Reo M35 2.5 ton truck was derived from the Reo M34 "Eager Beaver" (which didn't have duals on the rear axles--it had larger tires, which necessitated wheel wells in the cargo bed). The old 1:35th scale Monogram kit (since reissued by Revell Germany) depicted this vehicle.

The M135 was a competing GM design that the Army procured at the same time. The Reo had a manual transmission, and the M135 had an automatic. The M135 was used mainly in the continental US. Subsequent DOD purchases were M35-series trucks, so apparently the Army wasn't happy about its automatic transmission experiment. There has been no styrene kit of the M135, though I have seen some 1:34th scale die casts of civilian GM trucks with the same basic sheet metal.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 - 07:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text

A typical truck hauling 300 rounds of ammo, plus enough powder to shoot these rounds will be very loaded. You can do this with a 2.5 ton truck, but you won't go very far.



No, I shouldn't think so. Three hundred 155mm projectiles would weigh about 28,500 lbs or over 14 tons. Add in 300 propellant cans at 29 lbs per and you are looking at a 18-1/2 ton load. I'd be surprised if the suspension didn't collapse and the tires burst, let alone move at all.

I think there might be some mis-remembering in there . . . Maybe 30 rounds rather than 300?

KL
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 - 08:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The only one I know if is the Hobby Fan one in resin. I'm not sure it is still available though.



I think one of the European resin companies had one as well.

KL
trickymissfit
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Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 - 11:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

A typical truck hauling 300 rounds of ammo, plus enough powder to shoot these rounds will be very loaded. You can do this with a 2.5 ton truck, but you won't go very far.



No, I shouldn't think so. Three hundred 155mm projectiles would weigh about 28,500 lbs or over 14 tons. Add in 300 propellant cans at 29 lbs per and you are looking at a 18-1/2 ton load. I'd be surprised if the suspension didn't collapse and the tires burst, let alone move at all.

I think there might be some mis-remembering in there . . . Maybe 30 rounds rather than 300?

KL



here's how it works. A typical 155 unit has one five ton issued per gun, plus a couple others here and there. Commo, motor pool, and mess hall are issued 2.5 tons. (some motor pools had five tons instead). Then there were a handful of M37's here and there. On a typical day there was at least one five broke down (usually tires or brakes), but it wasn't uncommon to see two broke down. The gun crews never had the trucks with them once the Pig was set. The ammo section had them. Plus Service battery keeps a couple trucks for their own use (they were not issued a five ton). These guys are charged with resupplying the ammo dump and getting the ammo out to you. Then the ammo section takes over with what ever they can scrounge up. Most of the time it is a five ton, but every once in awhile they load up a 2.5 ton for a full night of shooting. We already know the targets by noon, and rather than emptying an ammo bunker, you shoot out of the back of a truck. In my part of the woods a 300 round H&I night was the norm, but we also had a cut off when things got over 350 rounds. After that we used two guns. Once the truck arrived, we tossed the powder canisters on the ground, and started fusing up rounds in groups of a hundred or so. From the ammo dump to our gun was about 150 yards, but to gun six it was closer to 400 yards. I have shot close to five hundred rounds in one day (calling the gun out to clean the breech at 300 rounds). Shooting those long days, you do two things. Train the newbies and rotate every man to a different position.

99% of the rounds shot are HE, and 90% of the powder used was white bag charge sevens (no matter the distance). Still we started out with charge one and charge three green bag shooting out to 3000 yards or less. Usually about twenty rounds. Still H&I's are shot everyday except for Christmas Day.

You use what you got, cause a kid ten thousand yards out needs you a lot worse that you need a five ton truck
gary
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 - 02:52 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Would the CCKW have been used to move the M1A1 155mm? I was thinking of getting Tamiya's 2.5 ton truck with Bronco's M1A1 but I'm not sure if that was a true match? I would love to use an M5 HST, but I can't find seem to find any in plastic and the Diamond T and 666 are out of my price range. I've already used the M35 with my 8 inch and the M4 HST with my Long Tom. Any suggestions???



Aside of HOBBY FAN's hard-to-find 1/35 resin M5 High Speed Tractor, IRON SHIPWRIGHTS (COMMANDER MODELS) has one in the works- As this will (?) supposedly be a resin/multi-media kit, you can expect it to be expensive...
1.90E_31
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Posted: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 - 04:47 PM UTC
Hello All,

The M5 kit has been available for over two years now, with a retail price of $109.95. You can see the kit here:



http://ironshipwrights.com/armor/M5hst.html

Jon Warneke
Commander Models, Inc.
bots1141
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Posted: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 - 06:42 AM UTC
The Tamiya CCKW is inexpensive so I really want to get it. Could it have been used to hull the M2 105MM??? I'm just in a big artillery kick right now.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 - 07:37 AM UTC
Yes, the CCKW was used to pull the M2 105mm howitzer. The short wheelbase version was more common, but the long wheelbase, as depicted in Tamiya's kit, was also used.