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Requesting help with the Sturmtiger
Luftan
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Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2016 - 10:01 AM UTC
Hello!
Ive been modelling for a year now, and I feel like its about time I work on something "original". I picked sturmtiger from Tamiya with Aber PE set, and decided to work on a diorama.

The scene im after is an abandoned sturmtiger half sunk (stuck?) in a mud. So far, I could only find 2 pictures of this vehicle.



With my poor history/military knowledge, I have many questions about this Sturmtiger.

1. What is the color? From my eyes, it looks like a single coat of Dunkelgrab, just really worn out.
2. Any Zimmerit? I heard sturmtiger were basically made out of un-repairable Tiger tanks, most of which had zimmert. In the picture, I cant say for sure.

And lastly, how would one cut a model in half
I would basically need to slice my sturmtiger in half side ways inorder to make it look half sunk. Do I do this with thin saw blade, or is there a more clever way?

I apologize if Im making this thread in the wrong section. I couldnt figure out where to post the best..
supaderpa
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Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2016 - 10:55 AM UTC
As to the colour, I know eyeballing it based on B&W pictures is highly unreliable but from what I noticed, there seems to be a few slightly darker shade patches over the vehicle which may suggest a multi coloured camo scheme. Of course it could just be discolouration or water streaks, dirt..etc... Personally, I think a multi tone scheme holds more visual interest compared to just a single colour.

This tiger doesn't seem to have zimmerit and is also missing its side skirts and fenders. You don't see that done very often on tiger 1 models which is quite interesting.

As for cutting, I guess one of those electric saws they use in workshops could cut it relatively cleanly but i think it rather unnecessary. Perhaps, creating a deeper well in the diorama and leaving the wheels off one end could work.
Luftan
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Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2016 - 11:54 AM UTC
Thanks for the reply !

I'm still not sure about the paint scheme, but I can agree with the vehicle having no zimmerit and fenders/mudguards.
It also lacks the counter weight usually attached on the muzzle. It doesnt even have the latches that were used to lock in the counter weight

There were only 18 of these vehicles built, and Im surprised that very little is documented about this particular one.

GazzaS
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Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2016 - 12:49 PM UTC
Sadly,
The Sturmtiger is one of the least-photographed tanks in history.

Gaz
ahandykindaguy
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Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2016 - 07:42 PM UTC
Having built a Sturm already, and bing of the opinion that it is one of the " coolest " of the tiger variants built, I would say it should have both of the following...a 3 color camo scheme, and zimmerit, along the lower hull section.

The second photo shows the presence of the side skirts, or at least several sections, bolted to the lower portion, just at the waterline. The rearmost ones appear to have been bent upward.

I think I have never seen either of these images, and the one with the kids all over it looks like a great reference for a super diorama. I look forward to your rendition.

Luftan
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Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2016 - 07:56 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Having built a Sturm already, and bing of the opinion that it is one of the " coolest " of the tiger variants built, I would say it should have both of the following...a 3 color camo scheme, and zimmerit, along the lower hull section.

The second photo shows the presence of the side skirts, or at least several sections, bolted to the lower portion, just at the waterline. The rearmost ones appear to have been bent upward.

I think I have never seen either of these images, and the one with the kids all over it looks like a great reference for a super diorama. I look forward to your rendition.



Now that you mentioned that, it does look like the sturm has couple side fenders attached. I was wondering what that white square thing is, but it could be a bent/folded sideskirt.
Oh no, this means I might have to purchase PE fender set

And yes. I plan on placing few kids on top of the tank. I just love that little child on the barrel with his WeeWee out
Steven000
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Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2016 - 08:32 PM UTC

Quoted Text

...and zimmerit, along the lower hull section...




Indeed, I remembered this picture from a book I read last week, it clearly shows zimmerit on the lower hull section.

Book = 'The tiger tank' by Roger Ford. (ISBN 1862270309)
I took a photo of the book as a reference for your model:



Kind regards
Steven
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Posted: Saturday, October 15, 2016 - 08:37 PM UTC
From what I have read all Sturmtigers had zimm on the lower hull as they were made from repurposed damaged tiger 1's of the period where Zimm was used.
varanusk
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Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 01:04 AM UTC
I think also it should have zimmerit, despite it can not be clearly seen.

In my opinion it looks plain yellow, but as said above, it is not possible to say for sure.

As for the cut, I would put it on the sink with water and mark a line to have a reference. Then I would use a mini power drill with a saw blade.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 05:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

From what I have read all Sturmtigers had zimm on the lower hull as they were made from repurposed damaged tiger 1's of the period where Zimm was used.



I've been building my Tamiya kit for a couple of years now-- researching as I go.
It's possible some escaped the zimmerit treatment, I've collected quite a few photos from on line sites and books and the vast majority of photos show zimmerit applied- but there is at least one other photo I've seen showing no zimmerit. As to the missing parts of this tank-- i.e.; the gun weight retaining ring-- it could have been removed after damage-- in fact, the whole thing looks like it was deliberately scuttled, and shoved into the river like so many of these vehicles were at the end of the war. There is definitely a fender hanger, and one fender is in place. As far as camouflage schemes go, most of the photos I've seen have the late war "ambush" scheme of tan, red brown and green-- several definitely have the circle pattern schemes-- but again, in photos I've seen there are a couple that look uniformly just one color. I'd say to build it the way you want.
As for cutting the hull-- I'd leave it alone and cut a base using extruded foam, placed in an appropriate sized picture frame or self built wood frame. Then cut the foam to fit and use Liquitex or a two part epoxy to "embed" the tank and the various detritus around the base. You can build up the sides of the foam with thin wood for a finished look.
VR Russ
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Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 05:26 AM UTC
Russ, from what I recall there was one that did not have zimmerit, and that was the prototype. I'd be curious to see if there are others -- is it possible for you to post or point a link to it? Am interested as I have a Sturmtiger planned for a current group build, and would be happy if I can get away with no zimmerit. Cheers, Tat
Luftan
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Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 03:46 PM UTC
Hi, thanks for lots of useful information.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/970696211/Here+we+go+again-+zimmerit+and+Sturmtigers+---
This page also had lots of discussion about the zim and sturmtiger.

Do you guys think there's any possibility that the ST shown in the first 2 pictures is a prototype?
Kevlar06
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Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 09:09 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi, thanks for lots of useful information.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/970696211/Here+we+go+again-+zimmerit+and+Sturmtigers+---
This page also had lots of discussion about the zim and sturmtiger.

Do you guys think there's any possibility that the ST shown in the first 2 pictures is a prototype?


I don't know if it's a prototype or not-- but there's some difference between the two photos-- looking at the two photos, the first picture was taken sometime after the lower photo as the water level is lower and some salvage has been done-- note the child on the left who's leg is dangling through a large rectangular hole in the armor, and it appears the roof and rear armor has been removed too. There is also a small traingular section of the outer left just above the fender position which appears to be the remnants of some armor plate. This tells me the upper photo (the one with the with the kids on it) really can't be used as a guide for zimmerit or color schemes since the tank has undergone some heavy salvage-- perhaps knocking the zimmerit off? The other (lower) photo is too far submerged and too poor in quality to really see if zimmerit is in place. I do believe now that this Sturm did not have the lugs on the rocket tube for the counter weight-- the tube looks too smooth, but don't know what that means as to the production run. Perhaps a Tiger "expert" could weigh in here. I do have some photos gleaned from on line sites of at least one other of Sturm without zimmerit, wether it's the prototype vehicle or not, I can't say. I'm recovering from knee surgery and can't get to my photo library right now as it's on my desktop computer and down two flights of stairs-- as soon as I can I'll see if I can get to it and post a link, but there are lots of photos on line of Sturms-- that's where I got the one without zimm.
VR Russ
Kevlar06
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Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 10:48 PM UTC
Ok, I'm searching my computer files, and have found this pic I saved from the Bovington collection. It appears to be a Sturm without Zimmeritt-- but again B&W photos can be deceiving so I'm not going to claim that we just can't see the zimmeritt on it-- it does look very clean though.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5590/14605111898_ced5d71c72_b.jpg

And here is a photo of the prototype without Zimmeritt:
http://s3.photobucket.com/user/Przemo/media/sturm.jpg.html

I don't think these are the same tank, based on barrel lugs and other details-- but the case can be made that the previous photo has rubber road wheels, which the prototype did have. Of course, modifications could certainly be made after leaving the factory. I submit that although there were only 18 made, they are late war vehicles in a confused "anything goes" environment, and exceptions could have been made at the factory just to get the things into combat. I still say to build the version you want to build.
VR Russ
Steven000
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Posted: Sunday, October 16, 2016 - 11:22 PM UTC
Hi, I was searching the web too,
here's another one with the bolts/nuts front plate mounted:


This one is the same as my previous post, zimmerit also on side hull:


This one is ...
Kevlar06
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Posted: Monday, October 17, 2016 - 12:27 AM UTC
Ive been working on a dio of the one with the GI in the tube for about two years now. This Sturmtiger is particularly interesting as it has the late war "circle" pattern ambush scheme. It also has Zimmeritt. The more photos I see of Sturmtigers, the more convinced I am that really no two appeared exactly alike, which goes to the point I said about building it the way you want. This was a stop-gap vehicle, put together from spare parts and rebuilt hulls like many other German late war vehicles-- I think they were more "hand built" than mass produced. Oh-- I almost forgot-- look at the combination of camouflage schemes out there-- this one not only has the circle pattern above, but the zimmeritt glacis is done with a spray gun. All this smacks of desperation on the part of the fatory/user.
VR, Russ
PantherF
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Posted: Monday, October 17, 2016 - 02:05 AM UTC
Along with the fact that the prototype Sturmtiger had no zimm but it had rubber rimmed wheels like the early version Tiger I.

All combat Sturms had zimm PLUS the late steel wheels.




Jeff
Kevlar06
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Posted: Monday, October 17, 2016 - 02:43 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Along with the fact that the prototype Sturmtiger had no zimm but it had rubber rimmed wheels like the early version Tiger I.

All combat Sturms had zimm PLUS the late steel wheels.




Jeff


Jeff, again take a look at this linked photo that I posted above of a combat Sturmtiger that does not appear to have any Zimmeritt and appears in one color-- it's not the prototype either.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5590/14605111898_ced5d71c72_b.jpg
VR, Russ
Luftan
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Posted: Monday, October 17, 2016 - 02:46 AM UTC
Thanks for more info and photos!

Now that Russ mentioned it, it does look like the ST in first picture is lacking big chunk of side hull and possibly others. I didn't even notice that.

With the lack of 100% fact-Proof evidence, I guess I'm going to have to use my imagination for some aspect. At the end, half of these details are going under water

Again, thanks all for the help. I will add more reply if I come up with any new info !
Kevlar06
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Posted: Monday, October 17, 2016 - 04:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Along with the fact that the prototype Sturmtiger had no zimm but it had rubber rimmed wheels like the early version Tiger I.

All combat Sturms had zimm PLUS the late steel wheels.




Jeff


Jeff, again take a look at this linked photo that I posted above of a combat Sturmtiger that does not appear to have any Zimmeritt and appears in one color-- it's not the prototype either.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5590/14605111898_ced5d71c72_b.jpg
VR, Russ


This is a colorized photo of the same image. Not that it means much-- if you look at the image more closely, it looks like it has steel wheels, but I can't really tell.
http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/607800-4/Sturmtigercolorfinal+in+details
VR Russ
Kevlar06
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Posted: Monday, October 17, 2016 - 07:33 AM UTC
Here is another image of the front of the "combat" Sturmtiger that I believe has no zimmeritt. I think it's the same vehicle because of the wire rope on the side, position of the lifting crane, bolted front armor and the position of the half-timbered building in the background with the wooden poles leaning against the tank. The telling item would have been the position of the tanks right hand clevis link in the first photo-- but sadly it's out of the frame of the camera in this photo of the front of the tank.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Jxy7VbsF6ng/UZnvgAdBxZI/AAAAAAAAElE/DPliKv1AR3I/s640/19.jpg

And here is a great model of the same tank from Jurek Rynicki on his Immodelist.com website:
http://i-am-modelist.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Sturmtiger3.jpg

The more I look at this photo I'm convinced there was at least this tank without zimmeritt, but there were probably others too-- we only have about ten good photos of Sturmtigers with Zimmerit- that leaves another 40% of the total of 18 out there that we don't have photos of. So we really can't say with certainty that the Sturm always had Zimmeritt-- we know the prototype didn't have any for sure, then there's this one. I could be wrong, and if proven so I'll admit I was-- but I think they came in different flavors-- no two appear alike, with 40% missing, we should never say never!
VR Russ
Kevlar06
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Posted: Monday, October 17, 2016 - 09:49 AM UTC
Sorry-- some errata-- it's Jurek Krynicki at I-am-modelist.com for the no zimm Sturmtiger model after the photo of the real thing taken sometime in 1945. The link works, but I had the name and website wrong.

Here are all the photos of the real thing and Jurek's model, which is really good (go to his website for photos of all sides) so you can decide for yourself:

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5590/14605111898_ced5d71c72_b.jpg

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/607800-4/Sturmtigercolorfinal+in+details

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Jxy7VbsF6ng/UZnvgAdBxZI/AAAAAAAAElE/DPliKv1AR3I/s640/19.jpg

http://i-am-modelist.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Sturmtiger3.jpg


VR, Russ
PantherF
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Posted: Monday, October 17, 2016 - 07:25 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Along with the fact that the prototype Sturmtiger had no zimm but it had rubber rimmed wheels like the early version Tiger I.

All combat Sturms had zimm PLUS the late steel wheels.




Jeff


Jeff, again take a look at this linked photo that I posted above of a combat Sturmtiger that does not appear to have any Zimmeritt and appears in one color-- it's not the prototype either.
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5590/14605111898_ced5d71c72_b.jpg
VR, Russ


This is a colorized photo of the same image. Not that it means much-- if you look at the image more closely, it looks like it has steel wheels, but I can't really tell.
http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/607800-4/Sturmtigercolorfinal+in+details
VR Russ



Those are the late wheels.

I don't believe the lower bolted armor platings received zimm over it.

Those photos are out of focus as I still believe and maintain there is zimm on the sides on all combat Sturms.

The Kubinka Museum Sturm lost it's zimm during restoration + through out the years.


BUT... it is hard to believe one persons knowledge due to the fact it was the least photographed WWII German vehicle. Only 19 combat vehicles were built.

I learned the hard way on believing in ONE image and built a 1/16 Sturmtiger without the zimmerit and then later learned all of them had it.





Jeff
Kevlar06
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Posted: Monday, October 17, 2016 - 07:49 PM UTC

[/quote]


Those are the late wheels

I don't believe the lower bolted armor platings received zimm over it.

Those photos are out of focus as I still believe and maintain there is zimm on the sides on all combat Sturms.

The Kubinka Museum Sturm lost it's zimm during restoration + through out the years.


BUT... it is hard to believe one persons knowledge due to the fact it was the least photographed WWII German vehicle. Only 19 combat vehicles were built.

I learned the hard way on believing in ONE image and built a 1/16 Sturmtiger without the zimmerit and then later learned all of them had it.





Jeff[/quote]

Jeff,
I've read the Kubinka museum thinks they have the prototype-- which supposedly did not have zimmeritt-- I guess the question is where you heard all of them had zimmeritt-- since this photo looks like that's not the case-- other photos of lesser quality clearly show zimmerit-- this photo does not seem to show it- again, we don't have the full population of Sturms to examine-- don't you agree it's possible?
VR Russ
Steven000
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Posted: Monday, October 17, 2016 - 08:58 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Jeff,
I've read the Kubinka museum thinks they have the prototype-- which supposedly did not have zimmeritt-- I guess the question is where you heard all of them had zimmeritt-- since this photo looks like that's not the case-- other photos of lesser quality clearly show zimmerit-- this photo does not seem to show it- again, we don't have the full population of Sturms to examine-- don't you agree it's possible?
VR Russ


I would say both of these images show some sort of extra armour plate mounted with bolts (bolts are visible in both pictures - but not on clear zimmerit pictures). I 'believe' this plate was mounted on top of the 'recycled' tiger I hull, whether there was zimmerit underneath or not. That's my thought, we might never know as mentioned before...

I also like to mention that these images are shot with the sunlight comming from the rear of the tank, so 'if' it had zimmerit on this plate it would be in the shadow and therefore harder to see...

(it's the same tank btw)




kind regards
steven
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