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To Post or Not in 2018
CMOT
Staff MemberEditor-in-Chief
ARMORAMA
#406
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England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: May 14, 2006
KitMaker: 10,286 posts
Armorama: 8,149 posts
Posted: Friday, December 29, 2017 - 03:17 PM UTC
Ladies and Gents one of the reasons sites like this falter in terms of participation is the way we pick on someone or a group that make a statement that is known to be wrong or contentious. If you do want to get to a stage where everyone fears to post because of the concern about being shouted down then carry on, and yes I do know we have all done it. So come on try treating those engaged in the hobby you all claim to enjoy with a modicum of respect and see if we can turn things around and get members posting again please. A quick read of forum posts highlight this issue quite quickly; however I also noted that some get bent out of shape due to a perceived insult that was not there.

I have been here in one form or another for many years and seen the decline of members willing to post their work, I believe in many cases due to concern over being attacked for it. I have also seen quite a few here attack members for their efforts who have themselves never shown their own efforts that I could find. I know we have issues with the gallery and how images are difficult to upload and use, this is something Jim is trying to resolve due to the feedback from me and others, but finding a cost effective solution is not easy.

In order to increase the enjoyment of the forums we are looking at making the participation of our Twitter and Facebook members easier while also looking into YouTube members being able to participate in the forums quickly and easily with their content and so attract fans who may find it hard to find what they are looking for and also provide a one stop look across a large section of model related content.

So my reason for this post is to request that all of our members consider the effect their responses may have and to reconsider their stance on not posting in the forums, after all you can only get great things out of the forums if you are willing to put additions into the forums.

Lastly Armorama and the KitMaker Network hope you all have a great and productive 2018.
bison126
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Aube, France
Joined: June 10, 2004
KitMaker: 4,922 posts
Armorama: 4,797 posts
Posted: Friday, December 29, 2017 - 04:24 PM UTC
Sensible statement Darren!
My best wishes to all the community for 2018!

Olivier
AussieReg
Staff MemberAssociate Editor
AUTOMODELER
#007
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Victoria, Australia
Joined: June 09, 2009
KitMaker: 5,486 posts
Armorama: 160 posts
Posted: Friday, December 29, 2017 - 04:32 PM UTC
Well said Darren, we should all be able to provide and accept constructive criticism and advice without things going off the rails. I know that I post my progress with the full understanding that there are many members here with knowledge, skills and experience far greater than my own, and I am grateful to receive and learn.

Best wishes to all Kitmaker members for a happy, safe and successful 2018!

Cheers, D
tatbaqui
Staff MemberNews Writer
ARMORAMA
#040
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Metro Manila, Philippines
Joined: May 06, 2007
KitMaker: 2,614 posts
Armorama: 2,355 posts
Posted: Friday, December 29, 2017 - 05:40 PM UTC
Well said Darren. My best to everyone for the coming new year! Cheers, Tat
ivanhoe6
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Wisconsin, United States
Joined: April 05, 2007
KitMaker: 1,490 posts
Armorama: 897 posts
Posted: Friday, December 29, 2017 - 06:13 PM UTC
Right On Darren ! If we all try to conduct our lives using the Golden Rule, "do unto others as we would have them do unto you" life would be so much better both here and in real life.
Thanks to you and the rest of the staff for all of your efforts !
Wishing all of the Kitmaker members a healthy & prosperous new year, with plenty of bench time !

Tom
Armorsmith
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Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: April 09, 2015
KitMaker: 847 posts
Armorama: 798 posts
Posted: Friday, December 29, 2017 - 06:41 PM UTC
I will echo what the others have said. I think many times we loose sight of the fact that we were all once beginners as well or may not have been as intensely interested in the hobby as we are now and consequently have the expectation (demand)that others be just like us. Be friendly, positive and encouraging and hopefully people will return.
48thscale
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Limburg, Netherlands
Joined: January 31, 2009
KitMaker: 229 posts
Armorama: 109 posts
Posted: Friday, December 29, 2017 - 07:08 PM UTC
I must admit that where Armorama was my first choice it is not anymore. I went to another site ...

The main reason you've already mentioned: I seriously dislike things getting personal, for whatever reason.

The other thing that really bothers me is continually pointing out what is "wrong" with a kit compared to the "real" thing, which gets even worse when brand names are promoted.

I like putting these kits together. A lot. I like painting them. A lot. I like reading about other people doing both. A lot.

Looking forward seeing a change happening here,

may 2018 be with you,

H.

j76lr
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New Jersey, United States
Joined: September 22, 2006
KitMaker: 964 posts
Armorama: 957 posts
Posted: Friday, December 29, 2017 - 08:12 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Ladies and Gents one of the reasons sites like this falter in terms of participation is the way we pick on someone or a group that make a statement that is known to be wrong or contentious. If you do want to get to a stage where everyone fears to post because of the concern about being shouted down then carry on, and yes I do know we have all done it. So come on try treating those engaged in the hobby you all claim to enjoy with a modicum of respect and see if we can turn things around and get members posting again please. A quick read of forum posts highlight this issue quite quickly; however I also noted that some get bent out of shape due to a perceived insult that was not there.

I have been here in one form or another for many years and seen the decline of members willing to post their work, I believe in many cases due to concern over being attacked for it. I have also seen quite a few here attack members for their efforts who have themselves never shown their own efforts that I could find. I know we have issues with the gallery and how images are difficult to upload and use, this is something Jim is trying to resolve due to the feedback from me and others, but finding a cost effective solution is not easy.

In order to increase the enjoyment of the forums we are looking at making the participation of our Twitter and Facebook members easier while also looking into YouTube members being able to participate in the forums quickly and easily with their content and so attract fans who may find it hard to find what they are looking for and also provide a one stop look across a large section of model related content.

So my reason for this post is to request that all of our members consider the effect their responses may have and to reconsider their stance on not posting in the forums, after all you can only get great things out of the forums if you are willing to put additions into the forums.

Lastly Armorama and the KitMaker Network hope you all have a great and productive 2018.



well said !!
27-1025
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North Carolina, United States
Joined: September 16, 2004
KitMaker: 945 posts
Armorama: 904 posts
Posted: Friday, December 29, 2017 - 09:21 PM UTC
Always good to have a reminder. Well said.
rdt1953
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New Jersey, United States
Joined: February 06, 2015
KitMaker: 936 posts
Armorama: 64 posts
Posted: Friday, December 29, 2017 - 10:36 PM UTC
Very well put Darren and I could not agree more - as I may have said a time or two in various posts - "Keep it Fun - for most of us it is a hobby "
Might I add that another likely factor in declining participation is the antics of one of the larger photo storage sites - I think many are reluctant to jump in or continue for fear of losing all their work - even with a new host .
This is still a great source of joy for me so a big thank you to Jim , you Darren and other staff members like yourself and all the participating Kitmaker contributers - ( you know who you are ) - for providing this for all.

Wishing all a Happy , healthy and prosperous New Year - Richard
Giovanni1508
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Napoli, Italy
Joined: April 17, 2014
KitMaker: 652 posts
Armorama: 600 posts
Posted: Friday, December 29, 2017 - 10:43 PM UTC

Well said, Darren. Appreciated your post. Thanks for your effort to improve the site.

My best wishes for a healthy, happy and prosperous new year 2018 with a lot of good time to enjoy our wonderful hobby !

j76lr
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New Jersey, United States
Joined: September 22, 2006
KitMaker: 964 posts
Armorama: 957 posts
Posted: Friday, December 29, 2017 - 11:05 PM UTC
it would be nice to have a easier way to post
Kevlar06
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Washington, United States
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 2,070 posts
Armorama: 1,040 posts
Posted: Friday, December 29, 2017 - 11:53 PM UTC
Frankly, I've had a lifetime of working with difficult people, and I don't want to add it to my hobby. My Mother always told me "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all", and that philosophy worked well for me through the years. I've Often thought about leaving Kitmaker because of some of the acidic posts, but then I realized change could begin with me-- by posting constructively and positively, which is really what a site like this is all about. It's the Gentlemanly (and Gentle-womanly too) exchange of ideas, not darts. If you're here to skewer another modeler, perhaps you are in the wrong frame of mind about our great hobby. A scale model is an artwork representing the real thing-- not the real thing--it can be close, but can never be the real thing. I have no problem with folks who want accuracy, but it's discouraging to see folks tout knowledge at the expense of civility when it comes to something as small as a model. When I see a post becoming devisive and unproductive, I stay away--as it benefits no one. I also admit, my electronic knowledge of 3rd party hosting (or more precisely, the lack thereof) has kept me from sharing my work. I've settled for sharing my ideas here, posting my work on other sites, and linking those posts to KitMaker when appropriate. I'm going to look at the tutorial given here to see if I can finally break the code on posting. I can use all the help I can get from the rest of you. But I'm with Darren that we could all be better at the way we say things-- sometimes you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. If we could all work to be more positive with what we post, and think about the impact of our message might have before hitting the "send button", we'd probably enjoy the hobby that much more. I for one will try to be better in the future year.
Very Respectfully (VR),
Russ
2002hummer
#257
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: October 11, 2011
KitMaker: 660 posts
Armorama: 100 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 - 12:28 AM UTC
I whole heartily agree. I think that is one reason why I have not been posting my builds as they are not up yo some of the creations from builders. I am in this hobby for the fun of it, not to be critisized by other builders. Helpful suggestions and hints but not nasty criticisms. If all members kept harsh remarks out of their posts more people would be posting their builds.
Jmarles
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British Columbia, Canada
Joined: November 02, 2008
KitMaker: 1,036 posts
Armorama: 866 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 - 12:54 AM UTC
Well said. There should be plenty of room for adult discussion. Some people take things too far and some people are way too sensitive. Some, usually the ones who think they are ALWAYS right get really defensive. Remember that guy who would argue with everyone because he was a self-described panzer expert, then he went and removed all his posts? Some people have too much time on their hands! Some people prefer paint and finish over accuracy and some vice versa. Some wish they could do both, I warrant. At the end of the day obviously "realism" must be suspended - the most apparent indicator being your kit is a plastic miniature! And quite frankly, current weathering fads are artistic but unrealistic. Some model tanks that had short lives have as much rust as a scrapped locomotive! Anyway, there will always be debate and discussion - isn't that part of why we come here? As for new releasea, personally I don't mind errors being pointed out. After all what's the point in making new kits if they contain the same errors from the 70s and 80s kits? My only reason for not posting pics - not that they are contest winners - is the clunky and unnecessarily difficult photo uploader. I post on FB and Scalemates where I can instantly post as many pics as the internet will allow me - without paying for a third party server that needs constant "update fees" like some kind of e-crack dealer! I wonder too, could there be a member based forum about news and announcements we could contribute to? More than once myself and others have posted in "armour" or "general" about a new kit...then a week or two later an actual news item is posted in the news section about the same kit! Also we should stop confusing "first box looks" with reviews. It's the difference between "xxx brand Opel Blitz" looks great - no flash, etc. and "xxx brand Opel Blitz mixes early front wheels with late rear suspension". Anyway hopefully the new year will once again prove to be an interesting year of discussion, debate and discourse.
parrot
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 1,578 posts
Armorama: 1,552 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 - 01:05 AM UTC
Agree with Russ,
If you you don't have anything good to say,say nothing.
I had a problem a few years ago with someone who constantly criticized a dio.Turned out to be a 12 year old getting advise from his Grandfather.Turned out well in the end because when I got some from Romain"RIP"I asked him "so what makes you so knowledgeable"?He showed me and we were Amorama friends till his passing.
I've been on here a long time and it's the best for posting.
I try to encourage young modellers.If that doesn't happen the whole art and enjoyment will die.How many LHS have closed in the last years?
I guess ,back to my point,if I see a post I think is not very good I send no response.
I also depend on members advise on how to improve a project.
All in all,this is the best place to have people from around the world to see your work.
Just enjoy the hobby and If you like it.Doe's it matter if one guy does't???
All the best to everyone in 2018.

Tom





Mortifa
#464
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British Columbia, Canada
Joined: December 02, 2016
KitMaker: 212 posts
Armorama: 150 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 - 01:28 AM UTC
Really saddened to see this kind of post.

If someone disagrees with a statement and responds, my best advise for people is, chill. Re-read what the posted and ensure they are not attacking you personally, attacking your idea, point of view, or work, done constructively, is a valuable lesson.

It is a shame we live in a society where criticism is viewed as an attack.
Bodeen
#026
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Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: June 08, 2002
KitMaker: 1,575 posts
Armorama: 1,210 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 - 01:59 AM UTC
AMEN!!!!!!!
justsendit
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Colorado, United States
Joined: February 24, 2014
KitMaker: 2,635 posts
Armorama: 2,155 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 - 02:13 AM UTC
I tend to read a majority of the daily Armorama updates and have noticed what seems to be a decline in members posting images — especially newer users. I believe some of that can be attributed to negativity, but for the most part, the KitMaker Network provides a very useful forum where one can find all sorts of inspiration. If I read a post which doesn't appeal to me, I'll just move on. I might actually go build something.

As far as posting images, that can be mentally and even physically grueling until one gets their formula down. ... And then, there was the dreaded Photohostage nightmare which literally destroyed many of the really good image posts on this site. Rarely a day goes by when I search a reference only to find those dastardly image placeholders. That's not KitMakers fault, but it nearly caused me to cease from any further image posting of my own. As things stand now, I have recaptured a formula for posting images which allows me to continue in sharing my work. I'm not saying it's great, I just enjoy sharing it with others. Without Armorama, I would keep my work to myself and the hobby just wouldn't be as much fun.

That said, the KitMaker Network has provided me with a great forum to have my gazillion questions answered, and where I can learn from the work of others. In addition, the Campaigns are fun to participate in. I strongly urge those who are hesitant to post, to plunge in and share your model building experiences here. Lastly, I never take myself too seriously — I try to keep things light. That's my key to enjoying this wonderful hobby.

Thank you KitMaker staff for all of your effort!

Happy 2018 Modeling!🍺

—mike
alanmac
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United Kingdom
Joined: February 25, 2007
KitMaker: 2,782 posts
Armorama: 2,704 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 - 02:19 AM UTC
Well I have to agree with the sentiment contained within Darren's post but not with the descriptions within it.

I have yet to see someone post pictures of their build and have it pulled apart in the manner described by some in this thread. I often hear the comment on different forums "I like this forum because I've been on others where someones model has been ripped to shreds" Well, I've yet to see this and if anybody has an example please post a link because as I said I've never seen it here or on any other modelling forum I go on. Prove me wrong...

As for what can be heated exchanges, this does seem to happen regarding kit releases from manufacturers when people see mistakes and wish to let others know about it. There can then be a difference of opinion over such detail, and also at what level that accuracy rates the model as worth buying or not.

It's strange how some feel an allegiance to certain manufactures and act as their unpaid representative.This is were I've witnessed the most animosity between members.

You do get the occasional closet fanatic who hides their perverse loyalty to something like the Nazi's but on the whole most model for the look and style etc of the subject, not the meaning or what that object stands for by association. There has been a few of those on not only this forum but others and these usually end up getting themselves rightly banned....David McKeever ring a bell anyone

As for people saying they don't post because of their model being ripped to shreds etc. I refer back not only to my previous statement but also question why did you post in the first place if you didn't want to read what people thought, and don't we all come to places like this to learn, extend our knowledge, increase our skills, raise our modelling standards. You won't achieve any of that by only getting a whole bunch of, great job, well dones etc. if there is seen to be errors or room for improvement.

I don't post pictures of my models for several reasons, one I don't get the time to make them anymore, and if I did post it would be wanting to know if what I'd done was right or wrong. I do post comments and I hope helpful information, links etc which I hope will be of value to fellow modellers.

So yes, be respectful, I go by the rule I wouldn't write anything I'd not be afraid to say face to face, and be aware that without the actual physical expressions of the person making the comments, only the "dry" text, then one can misread the meaning behind the words.

Alan
RuloMxy
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Kentucky, United States
Joined: March 05, 2009
KitMaker: 147 posts
Armorama: 130 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 - 02:35 AM UTC
I do believe that the choice of words matters a lot. Writing that somebody's post is "flawed" is very different as to " you may want to consider ...".

I do appreciate when somebody corrects me, but do not appreciate when somebody just dismisses my comments just because of their own personal preferences.

If Armorama is going to be a friendly forum then amicable conversations have to take place. It really puts me off, when I read contentious and aggressive posts. This is supposed to be a relaxing place to enjoy our hobby.

Happy New Year!
sgtreef
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Oklahoma, United States
Joined: March 01, 2002
KitMaker: 5,916 posts
Armorama: 4,270 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 - 06:57 AM UTC
Bloody Good.

Cheers

Jeff
barrowb98
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Alabama, United States
Joined: April 20, 2015
KitMaker: 119 posts
Armorama: 119 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 - 07:25 AM UTC
I agree with the sentiment of what you’re saying, but let’s face it - Forums are down because Facebook and other easier to use formats are taking over. Mobile is taking over, a majority of web traffic now is mobile. I can snap a pic with my phone and have it on Facebook or Twitter or Instagram in 2 seconds. Forums I have to find an uploader, upload it, figure out how to code it properly, etc., every one’s different. It’s just a pain.
amoz02t
#192
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Kentucky, United States
Joined: November 25, 2009
KitMaker: 1,156 posts
Armorama: 1,123 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 - 07:33 AM UTC
Well said! Happy New Years wishes to all
Jmarles
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British Columbia, Canada
Joined: November 02, 2008
KitMaker: 1,036 posts
Armorama: 866 posts
Posted: Saturday, December 30, 2017 - 07:46 AM UTC
I agree with the photo uploader. I would post a lot of pics if it were easier. As it is , it's the equivalent of a top-loading betamax machine compared to streaming Netflix. And like I said, I would welcome comments about my mostly DOOB builds...they won't be winnning any contests but look pretty darn good on my shelf! It's always good to get tips and feedback.