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AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
Summer Verdant Merdc Try out
mikado
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Posted: Monday, October 15, 2018 - 10:02 PM UTC
Got back into modelling recently...
Trying out summer Verdant Merdc camo..

Air brush the light green first followed by dark green.
Hand brush the black follow by Sand..

Think that the original Nato sand was too dark so I tried again using Iraqi sand..looks brighter..

Looking forward to comments and suggestions for further improvement!



27-1025
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Posted: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 - 01:57 AM UTC
Looks very good. The Iraqi sand is a much better choice.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 - 09:03 AM UTC
Mike,
I'm not so sure about the pattern of the scheme (for an M113?), but the colors are spot on. We repainted our Squadron vehicles twice a year, in the early spring and the early fall. I was the Squadron assistant S4 during Spring of 1979, and my squadron Commander had me running all over Germany looking for "Forest Green" paint in the exact shade you are using in your light green color. The only thing I'd add is the tan and black colors were designed to resemble "branches" to break up the MERDC greens (and browns for winter). Therefore they were seldom done in long "looping" streaks as you have depicted, although we would have some folks that "free lanced" thier camo schemes occasionally. I recommend finding the correct camo pattern if this is for US equipment.
VR, Russ
U-mark
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Posted: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 - 09:21 AM UTC
You can find the correct camo pattern in Cybermodeler's Subject and Color Reference section.
mikado
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Posted: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 - 06:20 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Mike,
I'm not so sure about the pattern of the scheme (for an M113?), but the colors are spot on. We repainted our Squadron vehicles twice a year, in the early spring and the early fall. I was the Squadron assistant S4 during Spring of 1979, and my squadron Commander had me running all over Germany looking for "Forest Green" paint in the exact shade you are using in your light green color. The only thing I'd add is the tan and black colors were designed to resemble "branches" to break up the MERDC greens (and browns for winter). Therefore they were seldom done in long "looping" streaks as you have depicted, although we would have some folks that "free lanced" thier camo schemes occasionally. I recommend finding the correct camo pattern if this is for US equipment.
VR, Russ



Russ..you are quite spot on..I cut out Tamiya plastic sheet based on the dimension of a 1/35 M113 which I will build later for this try out...As for the camo pattern..it is 100% "artistic license" for this try out..was testing if it was easier to handbrush the tan and black or to airbrush it...further investigation is needed..

Mark, thanks for the pointer to go cybermodeler for reference for the camo pattern..will try to follow the pattern there as best as I can...
Bravo1102
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Posted: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 - 09:53 PM UTC
Should be pointed out that some units hand painted the black and sand elements or ended up doing repainting by hand. Also as indicated some units improvised color and patterns depending on availability of paint and manuals.

Some National Guard vehicles substituted brown for the sand. Others had bad paint that weathered poorly with the dark green being very brownish or yellowish. Then there were mix and match schemes depending on where spare parts came from.

I handpainted a deuce and a half truck and watched them repaint our armory tank in the oddest mismatch of MERDC with the NATO colors. Looked like a Bundeswehr tank at the end of it.

Then there were M113s where the brush marks were visible from across the road.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 - 05:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Should be pointed out that some units hand painted the black and sand elements or ended up doing repainting by hand. Also as indicated some units improvised color and patterns depending on availability of paint and manuals.

Some National Guard vehicles substituted brown for the sand. Others had bad paint that weathered poorly with the dark green being very brownish or yellowish. Then there were mix and match schemes depending on where spare parts came from.

I handpainted a deuce and a half truck and watched them repaint our armory tank in the oddest mismatch of MERDC with the NATO colors. Looked like a Bundeswehr tank at the end of it.

Then there were M113s where the brush marks were visible from across the road.



While all of this is true, I will caviate it by saying in the 2/11 Cav, from 1976-80, while I was there, brush painting was kept to an absolute minimum for our equipment. The large swaths of greens and browns were almost exclusively done with an air gun, while tan and black were often (but not always) done with spray cans. Painting and seasonal re-painting were accomplished in an assembly line at the Troop, Company and Battery level. When a rebuilt or new track came from the depot, it was often painted in basic green, and would get the brown, tan, and black colors added at the unit motor pool, unless it was received in the field, repaint was then accomplished when we got back to garrison. We used the FM paint guide to paint with, so the patterns matched fairly closely, but often times there was some "artistic license" by individual paint teams, depending on "how far behind" in the painting process you were, which necessitated "short cuts". Typically, there might be some masking with "butcher" paper, but things like headlights, marker lights, aux antenna bases, vision blocks, etc. would be masked by smearing axle grease on them which could be easily wiped off after painting. Our paint came in 1 and 5 gallon cans (more often in the 1 gallon size). It was often thinned with MOGAS if we ran out of thinner, which could lead to some slight variation in color and sheen, and occasionally this would lead to premature "fading" of the colors. Spray paint came in quart OD painted cans (black and tan, although it came in all the colors for touch up). Usually a designated team at Troop level would paint the vehicle with brown and green, while the crew did the masking and the painting with spray cans. Very occasionally, a brush would be used to "fix" something or paint something if it was out of the regular painting cycle, so yes, you would see variation-- usually these were vehicles that had been received and painted hastily. As th XO of HHT, I had a broken down 5 ton which had been a "hanger queen for over a year (that would not happen with a tank or M113). When we finally got it running again, we decided to repainted it too to make it look presentable (it had been in an accident several years earlier) so it was a combination of spray and hand brushed colors-- but everyone in the Squadron could pick out old 444, because it had a "unique" paint job. And yes, that would occasionally happen to other vehicles, but with re-painting twice a year, most vehicles were quite uniform in thier appearance. I think it just depends on the unit, and time available for painting.
VR, Russ
mikado
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Posted: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 - 04:20 PM UTC
Another Updates...Considered the experiment done !

Next is to build a model and the translate the experiment to a finish model...

Have to decide if the model would be a M113A2 or a M577...

Bravo1102
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Posted: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 - 10:07 PM UTC
M577 is pretty striking with its huge sidewall.
mikado
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Posted: Monday, November 05, 2018 - 05:02 AM UTC


More tryout for the past 2 weeks. This time the target was MERDC Winter Verdant Camouflage.

Picture #1...I followed the colour recommended by Tamiya.
Picture #2...I followed the colour recommended by CyberModeler
Picture #3...I lighten the dark green colour recommended from #2..

I think I will go with #3 as #2 Dark Green was too dark;

The colour from #1 somehow do not look anywhere near to to the picture from Cybermodeler.

when I try to paint the black portion for #2..there was little contrast with the dark green and it was difficult...




So....The M577 will have Summer Verdant..and the M60A3 will have the Winter Verdant...
Kevlar06
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Posted: Monday, November 05, 2018 - 05:25 AM UTC
Mike,
Your #3 colors are dead on for the real thing! That's exactly the shades of color our vehicles were in 2/11 ACR when I was there in the late 70s and early 1980, when we transitioned from the M551 to the M-60A3. My only question is the summer shade on the M577, with the winter shade of the M-60. The two shades wouldn't overlap for long, as we tried to get everything repainted in about a ten day to two week window (at the most). So if you plan on depicting the two vehicles together, they'd probably be in the same shade, although for a few weeks in the spring or fall, you might see different shades on vehicles, If that were the case you'd need to show appropriate weathering on one vehicle or the other.
VR, Russ
BootsDMS
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Posted: Monday, November 05, 2018 - 06:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Should be pointed out that some units hand painted the black and sand elements or ended up doing repainting by hand. Also as indicated some units improvised color and patterns depending on availability of paint and manuals.

Some National Guard vehicles substituted brown for the sand. Others had bad paint that weathered poorly with the dark green being very brownish or yellowish. Then there were mix and match schemes depending on where spare parts came from.

I handpainted a deuce and a half truck and watched them repaint our armory tank in the oddest mismatch of MERDC with the NATO colors. Looked like a Bundeswehr tank at the end of it.

Then there were M113s where the brush marks were visible from across the road.



My comments have nothing to do with MERDC I'm afraid, but I recall when posted to my first unit in BAOR, espying black paint (over a matt green) being applied with mops. There was a rough guide chalked out on the vehicles in question (mainly Bedford RL BBVs)then it was left to the Mixed Service Organization (a labour force composed mainly of Displaced Persons from WW2 and their heirs) personnel to get on with it as they saw fit.

All a bit of a culture shock when I thought I was joining a really lavish Army, imagining superbly equipped paint shops and the like.

Since then, I've tried to never overlook the "Soldier Factor" when it comes to paint schemes on models.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Monday, November 05, 2018 - 08:32 AM UTC
[quote]
Quoted Text

Should be pointed out that some units hand painted the black and sand elements or ended up doing repainting by hand. Also as indicated some units improvised color and patterns depending on availability of paint and manuals...

Some National Guard vehicles substituted brown for the sand. Others had bad paint that weathered poorly with the dark green being very brownish or yellowish. Then there were mix and match schemes depending on where spare parts came from...


...My comments have nothing to do with MERDC I'm afraid, but I recall when posted to my first unit in BAOR, espying black paint (over a matt green) being applied with mops. There was a rough guide chalked out on the vehicles in question (mainly Bedford RL BBVs)then it was left to the Mixed Service Organization (a labour force composed mainly of Displaced Persons from WW2 and their heirs) personnel to get on with it as they saw fit.

All a bit of a culture shock when I thought I was joining a really lavish Army, imagining superbly equipped paint shops and the like.

Since then, I've tried to never overlook the "Soldier Factor" when it comes to paint schemes on models.




My thoughts exactly-- and the rapid fading of the Green and brown was likely because "the soldier factor" used MOGAS rather than paint thinner to thin paints for spray gun use (paint thinner came in gallon tins, and was hard to come by for some reason-likely because when you repaint a couple of hundred vehicles, the gallon tins don't go very far). We generally used spray cans for the tan and black, so they had a slightly different "sheen" to them-- almost a semi-gloss in some cases, but sometimes we sprayed those using an airgun as well.
VR, Russ
mikado
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Posted: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 - 01:59 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Mike,
Your #3 colors are dead on for the real thing! That's exactly the shades of color our vehicles were in 2/11 ACR when I was there in the late 70s and early 1980, when we transitioned from the M551 to the M-60A3. My only question is the summer shade on the M577, with the winter shade of the M-60. The two shades wouldn't overlap for long, as we tried to get everything repainted in about a ten day to two week window (at the most). So if you plan on depicting the two vehicles together, they'd probably be in the same shade, although for a few weeks in the spring or fall, you might see different shades on vehicles, If that were the case you'd need to show appropriate weathering on one vehicle or the other.
VR, Russ



Thanks Russ for your feedback. The 2 vehicles are not going be in any diorama...I will likely display them separately. On second thought..I still have the old Tamiya Kit M106 in my stash..I may have it as the same camo scheme as the M60A3 and put them in one diorama later on...let's see how it goes..

Anyway, over the weekend, I managed to applied what I learnt from the experiment and got the Summer Camo applies. Next will be the tedious task of painting the road wheel, track (least favourite) and all the tools to go to the vehicle..


mikado
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Posted: Wednesday, December 05, 2018 - 02:35 PM UTC


Over the last few weekends working on the individual track and a lots of running and cycling...to get a more balance life...:-)

The original Tamiya Vinyl track ..could be due to old age or old technology...does not look good at all; Replaced them with the spare Academy M113 Individual track link...

The hard part of using plastic individual track is to make sure the assemble track on the vehicle does not look like they defy gravity...
srmalloy
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Posted: Friday, December 07, 2018 - 09:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Some National Guard vehicles substituted brown for the sand. Others had bad paint that weathered poorly with the dark green being very brownish or yellowish. Then there were mix and match schemes depending on where spare parts came from.



If I remember the original specification correctly, the 'sand' portion of the pattern was intended to be painted with the color from the set that most closely matched the color of the dirt in the area the vehicle was intended to operate in, although I don't know how well that was followed. So having the 'sand' painted in brown is at least technically compliant with the specification.
Paulinsibculo
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Posted: Friday, December 07, 2018 - 05:13 PM UTC
Interesting story about camo painting in real life.
Question:
This constant change from ‚winter‘ into ‚summer‘ must have created quite some layers of paint.
Or did they strip them before repainting?
Kevlar06
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Posted: Friday, December 07, 2018 - 06:44 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Interesting story about camo painting in real life.
Question:
This constant change from ‚winter‘ into ‚summer‘ must have created quite some layers of paint.
Or did they strip them before repainting?



I was in the 11th Cav for almost 4 years-- and I think I saw 6 or 7 re-paints in those years-- surprisingly, the paint didn't build up so much when it was sprayed. However, tanks and APC came and went, since they were on a rotational replacement program based on mileage and serviceability, so the average life of a specific vehicle with the unit might have been 3-4 years too. After that it went off to the depot where it would be partially or totally rebuilt, including having paint stripped and re-applied in the basic green. Later in my career I had the opportunity to work very closely with the depot and rebuild facility in Korea, and I can say from that experience that 90% of tactical tracked vehicles will be rebuilt 2-3 times or more in thier life span, so paint really doesn't have a chance to accumulate.
VR, Russ
mikado
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Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 03:25 AM UTC




Finally..during the year end lull period from work...I managed to assemble the M60a3 kit, airbrush the 2 base color (Green and brown) and hand painted the other 2 minor color (Black and Tan)...was a lot of work but I really enjoyed....

Next is to add in the decal to the M60a3...prepare the track...
27-1025
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Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 06:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text





Finally..during the year end lull period from work...I managed to assemble the M60a3 kit, airbrush the 2 base color (Green and brown) and hand painted the other 2 minor color (Black and Tan)...was a lot of work but I really enjoyed....

Next is to add in the decal to the M60a3...prepare the track...



Very nicely done. Really like that.
2CAVTrooper
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Posted: Sunday, December 30, 2018 - 07:34 AM UTC
Nice job on the camo.

I've got an M-60 that I'm planning on doing the snow/temperate with trees scheme.

I just need a better compressor.
mikado
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Posted: Tuesday, January 01, 2019 - 06:56 PM UTC
Hi all....

Need help on weathering tips here...What is the most appropriate filtering for Summner and Winter Verdant camo scheme ?

I used to apply a very thin Raw umber filter on a Mono Green color vehicle followed by Pin wash so that the details on the vehicle will stand out...

However for Winter Verdant Camo..with the parts of the vehicle already brown in color, I wonder if Raw umber filter will be useful in bringing out the details of the vehicle ?

I also read in another thread here that multiple layer of different filtering will actually darken the vehicle...and should be avoided...

Can anyone who had "weather" Merdc camo scheme share their experience here ? TIA

Kevlar06
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Posted: Wednesday, January 02, 2019 - 03:58 AM UTC
I think it depends on what you are trying to accomplish. These vehicles were kept pretty clean between missions in Europe, with a high pressure wash on the washstand after use. That frequent washing had a tendency to fade colors a bit, but not much since most vehicles received a repaint at least once a year. If you are going for a particularly dirty vehicle, I'd try using some thin burnt umber as a filter, lower down on the hull. I'd think that would do the trick. If you have access to oil paint, I'd use that, and save some similar shades of oils for the greens and browns, try and avoid the tan areas, but you could use light gray for those.
VR, Russ
mikado
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Posted: Sunday, January 13, 2019 - 02:58 AM UTC






Thanks Russ for your pointer..still deciding how I should weather this vehicle...But before that..a lot of work done to add in the track...used the M60 track from AFV club..lots of sink hole...meaning lots of sanding...but I decided to sand only one side since the other side cannot be seen..

Added in the decal..and they look really out of place...showed it to my boy and wife..and they thought so too...the vehicle marking is not tactical at all...but I guess there must be reasons for it to be so big with "an out of place color" or maybe it was peace time training in Germany ? Can those who serve during the "Exercise Reforger" time frame share the reason for the non tactical marking ?

This M60a3 considered done san weathering..I am going back to complete the decal and finalize the track assembly for the M577...

iowabrit
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Posted: Sunday, January 13, 2019 - 03:13 AM UTC
When we repainted our vehicles in Germany the black often came out semi gloss, mainly because the squaddies doing the painting (with a brush) were too lazy to stir the paint first. The green wasn't repainted so often because that was the original overall paint colour on the vehicle.