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Armor/AFV: Modern Armor
Modern armor in general.
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Can "88" penetrate modern tanks ?
AlfredCZ
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Posted: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 - 09:32 PM UTC
It is a little crazy - but can most feared anti-tank cannon of WW II penetrated (and destroyed) modern tanks ? i think a soviet post war construction (with ammunition stowage under turret) - hypoteticaly can be destroyed... (from side). But cannon from JagdTiger (128mm) maybe can give death punch to modern tanks as Leopard II, Abrams, Leclerc and T-80 & T-90. (But not one hit).

Or i mistake ? I can wrote a what if story... but not inpossible. (I read in newspaper a in East Ukraine conflict was used a IS-2 (or IS-3) used as memorial tank... And in Balcan wars was used many WW II types US and Soviet (T-34/85, probably SU TD, sure M-36 Jackson & Sherman)... And ISherman with powerful French long barreled gun can give K.O. to T-55/62 family...
barkingdigger
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Posted: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 - 09:50 PM UTC
I seriously doubt it. Modern tanks use complex armour "sandwiches" designed to take the energy out of incoming rounds so they cannot penetrate. And they do this for guns with a lot more punch than the old 88 or even the 128mm. There are always weaknesses, and most tanks are vulnerable to lucky shots from the side (under the sponson) or from above (roof armour is usually thin), but these are not typical attack angles.
StephenB
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Posted: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 - 10:01 PM UTC
Would an 88mm armed tank get close enough to a modern AFV to deliver an accurate shot?
barkingdigger
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Posted: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 - 10:05 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Would an 88mm armed tank get close enough to a modern AFV to deliver an accurate shot?



Only if lying in ambush, or in the WoT universe...
piwi
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Posted: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 - 10:21 PM UTC
Hi,

Yes it could be...but it depends what do you mean by " modern tank".

In 1994 in Bosnia we found a "88" using against tanks (T55)

Now if you're talking about M1, Leopard or Leclerc MBT I doubt
AlfredCZ
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Posted: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 - 10:24 PM UTC
I don´t play a WoT. And it is a hypoteticaly. But i was a really fascinated with using of WW II tanks in modern conflict. (As were Balcan wars - now in new Miniart kits, or East Ukraine conflict - or Mid East Wars. And i think an "ambush". Naturaly - really modern tanks (as Abrams etc.) have hi-tech sensors. But when i saw many photos of totaly destroyed tanks with blown turrets (T-72) i think a old modern tanks (but still used in many countries as is T-55/62 & T-72 family, M-60 etc) can be "vulnerable" by high velocity guns... And i think a side hit...
Namabiiru
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Posted: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 - 11:13 PM UTC
Perhaps the question should be whether an 88 could load and fire a modern AT round? I'm guessing most likely not, but since this is all speculation anyway...

DickJones
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Posted: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 - 11:30 PM UTC
A Pak 44 can in theory get through 275mm. IIRC, the Bradley's chaingun got through the rear of an M1 in a frat incident. I mean, it's technically possible I guess.
DickJones
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Posted: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 - 11:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi,

Yes it could be...but it depends what do you mean by " modern tank".

In 1994 in Bosnia we found a "88" using against tanks (T55)

Now if you're talking about M1, Leopard or Leclerc MBT I doubt



100m or less, KwK 43 is going to give serious problems to the rear of any modern tank IMO. It's still a savagely powerful weapon... mobility kill is possible, in utterly ideal circumstances.

Now... the real question is... 😁

What would a Raketen-Werfer 61 L/5.4 380mm shaped charge round do to a modern NATO tank? I mean if we're putting the WW2 boys against modern NATO marvels, might as well let them bring their best slugger up.

I think the HE round rips the turret off an Abrams and destroys the hull, the shaped charge... probably similar.
AlfredCZ
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Posted: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 - 12:37 AM UTC
Wow !!! This is interesing ! Have you photos S'il vous plaît ?

Yup, i don´t think exactly a modern big MBT with computers, sensors and lasers, but "post war"...

So, and destroyed "88" T-55 ?

Merci

Johnnych01
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Posted: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 - 01:00 AM UTC
On a side note and a slight variation to the original Q, you wouldnt necessarily have to penetrate to take out and destroy a modern MBT.
The only time a Challenger 2 has been destroyed was during a blue on blue with another Chally 2 when a HESH rounds exploded above the open Comd's hatch setting off internal turret fires, cooking off internal ammo. Sadly kiling 2 crew.
As to the main question, its tricky: the new generation M1's, Chally 2's, Leo's etc with all their extra add on and slatted armour .... probably not, the 88 would probably just annoy the crew .... but, a lucky shot through the rear engine hull plate ... possibly, but only a mobility kill, not a K kill.
Bravo36
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Posted: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 - 02:21 AM UTC
An 88 could certainly deliver a mobility hit, destroying the tracks and road wheels. Unable to move, a tank is just a pillbox.
Biggles2
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Posted: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 - 06:47 AM UTC
For all it's armor, an M1A1 (COHONES EH) was disabled by an SPG -9 (73 mm recoilless gun) through it's rear outside Baghdad. The round didn't destroy the tank, but started a fuel fire that could not be extinguished. COHONES EH had to be self-destroyed.
TopSmith
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Posted: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 - 07:09 AM UTC
A round through the turret rear, hull rear, or low in the side hull. the issue is similar to the smaller antitank guns meeting a late war tank. By 88mm did you mean the flack gun, the Tiger 1 gun or the Jagedpanther gun? There was a performance difference.
AlfredCZ
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Posted: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 - 09:05 AM UTC
Flak 18&36, and long barelled KwK from Tiger I and Tiger II...
And 128mm Flak 40 from JagdPanther or Stürer Emil. Yup, i was fascinated by Flak Zwilling - i have it in stock from Takom but still never built it and in sight i have it from Trumpeter in towing single barrel config... (But i know Zwilling never used against tanks...) but JagdTiger can give punch to 3km...
I wrote last years a "what if story, when one average "grandpa" captured in May ´45 JagdTiger, give it under straw into barn and when comming Warszzav pact invasion in Czechoslovakia after Prague Spring ´68, he shot on occupants from their JagdPanther. And in ´68 was standard soviet tank a T-55/62 (and heavy T-10)... )(And yup, Polish army have in Czechoslovakia T-34/85)... But it is a what if only (but i can´it be unrealistic). But i know a JagdTiger is rare beast, used in western front (and not in Czechoslovakia in 1945)...
brekinapez
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Posted: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 - 11:28 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Yup, i was fascinated by Flak Zwilling - i have it in stock from Takom but still never built it



When you get around to it, test fit, test fit, test fit. Their earlier kits had some issues. Looks nice when done, though.

Removed by original poster on 08/20/20 - 00:07:35 (GMT).
joepanzer
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Posted: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 - 12:09 PM UTC
My 2¢

I think the general answer you're looking for is "No"-based on modern Armor technology.
However, I would think that too many factors involved to make a definitive yes or no.

Head on with modern Armor? Nope.

Modern armor approaching while descending a 10 degree slope?
Most definitely.

M-1 Tank with Diesel? Probably not.

M-1 Tank with JP-5? Probably so.

etcetera and so on

Spades
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Posted: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 - 12:26 PM UTC
Well. lets change this up a bit.

On modern tanks, I think the 88 could cause some damage up to a mobility kill if the engine is hit/tracks.

But, if you put it up against the 113, Bradleys, BTR's, BMP's, basically personnel carriers. I think it would have a better kill ratio as the armor on those vehicles isnt as thick.

During Desert Storm, our XO, while calling in artillery, took out a BMP with a smoke rounds they were using to determine range.
M4A3E8Easy8
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Posted: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 - 08:42 PM UTC

Quoted Text

My 2¢

M-1 Tank with Diesel? Probably not.

M-1 Tank with JP-5? Probably so.

etcetera and so on




I love the belief that Diesel is some how not going to burn. JP-5 is used in the Navy and Abrams due to the treatment to raise the flash point to a higher level. Thus it is less likely to flash than diesel.
The myth that gasoline tanks burn more often than diesel tanks has been studied and disproven. (please do not try to debate the Sherman "tommy cooker" issue, that was ammo not fuel) Diesel is used in tanks due to the energy density of the fuel not its likely hood to not catch fire.
long_tom
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Posted: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 - 11:29 PM UTC
The Osprey book may be wrong, but it implies that the 88 was obsolescent even by 1945, with tanks having better armor. It was meant to be used against aircraft in the first place, and its use against armor was found by accident.
Biggles2
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Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2020 - 03:33 AM UTC
Comparing an 88 mm FlaK 36 L/56 to an 88 mm PaK (and KwK) 43 L71 is comparing apples to oranges. References may vary, but one states that the L 71 had an 89% (in combat) success rate of penetrating 193 mm of rolled armor at 30 degrees, at a range of 1 kilometer - not bad for an "obsolete" gun!
AlfredCZ
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Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2020 - 08:51 AM UTC
Yup, i know, maybe it later released Trumpeter, when make single barreled, but when i have takom i built it
AlfredCZ
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Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2020 - 09:09 AM UTC
But we know a Tiger fever in West Armies or Ferdinand fever in Red Army. "88" was most feared gun in battlefield... And classic towed FLAK gun was ultimate weapon from begin of WW II to last day of this conflict.... In theory - when you hit tank through "basket" in to ammunition it can be destroyed. In Syrian war was few turkish Leopard I destroyed when was hit RPG trough rear turret plate.

But naturally i have on mind post war tanks from T-55/62 and Cold War T-72 or Western tanks as M-47/60, maybe early Leo I.

And sorry - what is diesel powered Abrams ? This variant exist ? I know only Early production without Chobham Armor and with 105mm gun... Diesel engined powered M1(without gas turbine)was prototype tank ?
long_tom
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Posted: Thursday, August 20, 2020 - 09:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Comparing an 88 mm FlaK 36 L/56 to an 88 mm PaK (and KwK) 43 L71 is comparing apples to oranges. References may vary, but one states that the L 71 had an 89% (in combat) success rate of penetrating 193 mm of rolled armor at 30 degrees, at a range of 1 kilometer - not bad for an "obsolete" gun!


The idea of David killing Goliath with a slingshot? Not so far fetched after all-if the shot happens to hit Goliath in just the right spot!