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For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
New North Korean tank!
Biggles2
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Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 - 03:11 AM UTC
You can't see the bicycle wheels underneath that the tank is really running on!
vettejack
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Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 - 03:29 AM UTC
Donald Sutherland in "Dirty Dozen"...inspecting troops as an incognito "General"..."they're very pretty Colonel, very pretty, but can they fight?"...

Kinda begs the same question when viewing all those NK girly men, parading about.
Biggles2
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Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 - 03:44 AM UTC

Quoted Text


... all those NK girly men, parading about.


Thai ladyboys??
bramah4
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Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 - 06:16 AM UTC
I would certainly welcome some or any NK 1/35 scale hardware in styrene. This new re-skinned T62 looks like it would be a fun build. I'm loving the new cammo schemes. Anyone at Amusing/Trumpeter/HobbyBoss care to chime in?
braulston
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Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 - 06:44 AM UTC
A Tamiya or Trumpeter T-62 and some evergreen sheet and you would have an accurate representation of the latest most up to date NK armor tech.
seanmcandrews
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Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 - 10:59 AM UTC
At one point in the video, the tanks travel over the camera location revealing hull belly ribbing that looks like a T-72.
Petition2God
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Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 - 03:03 PM UTC

Quoted Text

About the tank: it has nothing to do with the T-14 because it has a manned turret, this is clear.
On the other hand, my first impression was the resemblance with M1 Abrams, obvously armed with 125 mm gun. Then I saw the voids around the turret.
So, the turret looks angular and relatively small, with a spaced armour around that has openings for smoke mortars and few other things.
The hull has 7 road wheels for each side, so it is not a Songun with new turret, but something newer and more radical.
The gun sight is on the left side of the turret, so the gunner has to be on that side and the man on the right is the tank commander. This is the same configuration of T-72, T-80 and ZTZ 96 and 99, indicating a two-crewed turret with autoloader.
The missiles on a turret's side are an exclusive, but one could ask if the same weapons could more advantageosly installed on a separate light vehicle without overloading the tank commander.
I can't see machine guns on the tank, I wonder why.
There are two closed boxes on the front sides of the turret, they could hide (or only suggest) a IR jamming device as on T-90.
The hull has the exhaust port on the left side, suggesting commonalities with Soviet and Chinese tanks.
My impression is that the vehicle could have size and performances comparable to early ZTZ-99.


Who knows, man? It's all speculations at this point. All I am saying is that this supposedly "next generation" NK tank (if they are real) has similar looking features with Armata (ZTZ-99 and Abrams). Some Internet trolls are speculating that Iranians gave NK some tank technology (based on info that Iranians shared some missile and submarine technology with NK before). Like others are saying, these just may be mock-ups.
MassimoTessitori
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Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 - 05:02 PM UTC

Quoted Text

A Tamiya or Trumpeter T-62 and some evergreen sheet and you would have an accurate representation of the latest most up to date NK armor tech.


Don't make it so easy. I'm doing this work for a Chonma-214, that requires only the scratchbuilding of the turret, of the side skirts and few other things.
Chonma-214 and 216 would require a wide cut-and-paste work on the hull too, employing two kits because they have six road wheels.
Songun would require a nearly full scratchbuilding.
This new tank has nothing in common, visually, with the T-62. It has seven road wheels of unrecognizable shape.
MassimoTessitori
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Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 - 05:52 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Who knows, man? It's all speculations at this point. All I am saying is that this supposedly "next generation" NK tank (if they are real) has similar looking features with Armata (ZTZ-99 and Abrams). Some Internet trolls are speculating that Iranians gave NK some tank technology (based on info that Iranians shared some missile and submarine technology with NK before). Like others are saying, these just may be mock-ups.



I don't think. Iranians have bluffed many times, Zulfiquar remained a prototype despite being shown every time with a different painting, and Karrar could really be a T-72 with some sheets on to resemble a T-90M. They have duplicated the fins of F-5Es naming them as new fighters and made an aircraft carrier mockup.
North Koreans have never bluffed with weapons: the missile is real, as the nuclear warhead. Why not a new tank?
Why should them continue to produce the obsolete born Songun, that it is superior to a T-62 only for a 125 mm gun?
Building a new tank is not so impossible. Just to see if they will find the electronics and other technologies to put it into an up to date state.

A lot of things can be deducted from an outside photo. For example, the tank is rather long, with a long nose and the turret moved rather back. This suggests a lot of space in front of the driver. Should it have a so thick armour? Probably not, probably it is a spaced armor as we can see on the turret, but closed on the top.
Now I see that there is a machine gun over the large ammo box over the turret, hinged in front of the gunner's hatch. Probably it is remote controlled from inside, because its position is not ergonomic.
Khouli
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Posted: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 - 06:04 PM UTC
I think what I find a bit disappointing from the majority of the posts on this topic, is the readiness with which this vehicle and its potential as a weapon are being laughed down - purely because its North Korean. I have first hand experience of how flawed some of our own NATO tanks are with regards to design.

I'm sure it will continue to be funny to some, right up until the point that several hundred of them roll over the border.

There's no reason why this couldn't be a very capable platform. This tin-pot Army you decry has successfully kept S Korea and its Allies twitching for decades, lets hope that we never have to find out if this really is a worthy opponent or not.
LonCray
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Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 - 12:18 AM UTC
I am in full agreement with the hope we never see NK in combat. That said, without something other than a boulevard parade, there's no way to tell if these tanks (and those huge 'compensating for something' missiles) are real or not. We know the Soviets were faking strength for years - their vehicles looked good but their troops were underfed and hazed like mad. I don't think we've seen enough to judge NK yet.
hugoalejandro
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Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 - 01:10 AM UTC
I for one still believe that the supposedly almighty NK armed forces are closer to a hollow threat than to a real menace. Of course I can be wrong...
Don't want to start a rant here about what for the vast majority of us here are unknown facts, like the actual operational quantities and types of tanks in the NK army, the actual accuracy and load capacities of NK missiles, and so on.

But facts also are that NK didn't keep SK and its allies "twitching" at the border just for NK military strength, but mainly due to geopolitical reasons -yes, Russia and China obviously- and other kind of threats that so far kept NK out of being a tempting target.
Back to NK tanks, I really can't see why they seem to look so menacing to some people. There's not a single checked evidence of any technological leap along NK armor development...
As other guys here have said, we are all guessing and speculating.
MassimoTessitori
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Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 - 06:53 PM UTC
I thought to have seen open spaces over the turret, now I think that some shadow has fooled me.
The flat protrusion over the turret's top looks terrible from a ballistic point.
Anyway, it's strange that they made the cuts for the smoke launchers on the outer armour if it is thick. Probably the outer layer is relatively thin, with voids under it. A spaced armour, in brief.
Anyway I see the lifting hooks for the turret on the outer armour, they have to resist to the weight of the turret when lifted. Who knows if it's connected to the inner armour or the outer one is solid enough?
vettejack
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Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 - 11:58 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I think what I find a bit disappointing from the majority of the posts on this topic, is the readiness with which this vehicle and its potential as a weapon are being laughed down - purely because its North Korean. I have first hand experience of how flawed some of our own NATO tanks are with regards to design.

I'm sure it will continue to be funny to some, right up until the point that several hundred of them roll over the border.

There's no reason why this couldn't be a very capable platform. This tin-pot Army you decry has successfully kept S Korea and its Allies twitching for decades, lets hope that we never have to find out if this really is a worthy opponent or not.



I think a 22 year military career, with numerous types of clearances and hundreds of classified mission briefings might "qualify" me to throw out a bit of off-color humor at the NK military.
hugoalejandro
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Posted: Thursday, October 15, 2020 - 12:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I think what I find a bit disappointing from the majority of the posts on this topic, is the readiness with which this vehicle and its potential as a weapon are being laughed down - purely because its North Korean. I have first hand experience of how flawed some of our own NATO tanks are with regards to design.

I'm sure it will continue to be funny to some, right up until the point that several hundred of them roll over the border.

There's no reason why this couldn't be a very capable platform. This tin-pot Army you decry has successfully kept S Korea and its Allies twitching for decades, lets hope that we never have to find out if this really is a worthy opponent or not.



I think a 22 year military career, with numerous types of clearances and hundreds of classified mission briefings might "qualify" me to throw out a bit of off-color humor at the NK military.



You have my vote
amoz02t
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Posted: Thursday, October 15, 2020 - 01:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think what I find a bit disappointing from the majority of the posts on this topic, is the readiness with which this vehicle and its potential as a weapon are being laughed down - purely because its North Korean. I have first hand experience of how flawed some of our own NATO tanks are with regards to design.

I'm sure it will continue to be funny to some, right up until the point that several hundred of them roll over the border.

There's no reason why this couldn't be a very capable platform. This tin-pot Army you decry has successfully kept S Korea and its Allies twitching for decades, lets hope that we never have to find out if this really is a worthy opponent or not.



To your point on potential- is there anything to the features "optimised for mountain warfare"? Could anyone else see how an Abrams long range kill potential is dulled by terrain during an ambush in the hills? Afgahnistan was not a great place for tank battles either, right? Only hope we are not fighting the last war. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance.
Johnnych01
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Posted: Thursday, October 15, 2020 - 02:36 AM UTC
The tank may well be a total vanity project or a hollow shell rolling around on tracks to project the "look at me and all my vast military might" ... or ... it could be a real showstopper. We will probably never know as the chances of looking inside one are remote, so its a case of waiting for a defector who happened to design/drive/crew one to come over and spill the beans.
Khouli
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Posted: Thursday, October 15, 2020 - 06:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I think what I find a bit disappointing from the majority of the posts on this topic, is the readiness with which this vehicle and its potential as a weapon are being laughed down - purely because its North Korean. I have first hand experience of how flawed some of our own NATO tanks are with regards to design.

I'm sure it will continue to be funny to some, right up until the point that several hundred of them roll over the border.

There's no reason why this couldn't be a very capable platform. This tin-pot Army you decry has successfully kept S Korea and its Allies twitching for decades, lets hope that we never have to find out if this really is a worthy opponent or not.



To your point on potential- is there anything to the features "optimised for mountain warfare"? Could anyone else see how an Abrams long range kill potential is dulled by terrain during an ambush in the hills? Afgahnistan was not a great place for tank battles either, right? Only hope we are not fighting the last war. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance.



I think we all know that unless you're on the North German Plain, or the desert (gas turbine engines?) - MBTs are pretty much useless. I'm not sure of Korea's topography - so they might count here too.

Increasingly, Governments are coming to the realization that MBTs are an expensive luxury for all but the most open of battlefields.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Thursday, October 15, 2020 - 07:52 PM UTC


North Korea is mostly mountains/highlands
South Korea is more evenly split between mountains/highlands and lowland areas
Tank1812
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Posted: Thursday, October 15, 2020 - 09:00 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I think we all know that unless you're on the North German Plain, or the desert (gas turbine engines?) - MBTs are pretty much useless. I'm not sure of Korea's topography - so they might count here too.

Increasingly, Governments are coming to the realization that MBTs are an expensive luxury for all but the most open of battlefields.



I think that is very short sided. MBT have been used effectively in all types of combat. Yes, they can be highly effective is long range open terrain warfare vs other MBT and armor. They can also be used effectively in an urban situation supporting grunts. Even if the main gun effectiveness is degraded by terrain they can be an effective rolling pillbox in support for and with the infantry. No, it’s not then end all be all tool, no equipment is but it’s an important tool in the toolbox to have. I think the Marines we very wrong to retire them all. Would have been best to retain some for other missions then toe to toe with China.

hugoalejandro
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Posted: Friday, October 16, 2020 - 12:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text



I think that is very short sided. MBT have been used effectively in all types of combat. Yes, they can be highly effective is long range open terrain warfare vs other MBT and armor. They can also be used effectively in an urban situation supporting grunts. Even if the main gun effectiveness is degraded by terrain they can be an effective rolling pillbox in support for and with the infantry. No, it’s not then end all be all tool, no equipment is but it’s an important tool in the toolbox to have. I think the Marines we very wrong to retire them all. Would have been best to retain some for other missions then toe to toe with China.




We've seen this kind of ideas in the past.
Remember when the stars of the air forces were the interceptors because some people were convinced that future wars will be nuke bombers against AA defences?
Remember when a lot of people announced the death of the MBT's after the 1973 Middle East wars, due to the huge success of ATGM's?
Remember when the trend was to convert everything into light fast-reaction units because they were the solution to the "new" threats? And that seemed to be a genius idea until Gulf War I, when Desert Shield had to be implemented until enough heavy armor reached the zone...
We are now living yet another "era" when -once again- the death of MBT's is declared, but time will tell if that actually happens any time in the near future...
So far, and since the First Great War they are still running and the spinal column of any serious army.
Khouli
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Posted: Monday, October 19, 2020 - 06:34 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text



I think that is very short sided. MBT have been used effectively in all types of combat. Yes, they can be highly effective is long range open terrain warfare vs other MBT and armor. They can also be used effectively in an urban situation supporting grunts. Even if the main gun effectiveness is degraded by terrain they can be an effective rolling pillbox in support for and with the infantry. No, it’s not then end all be all tool, no equipment is but it’s an important tool in the toolbox to have. I think the Marines we very wrong to retire them all. Would have been best to retain some for other missions then toe to toe with China.




We've seen this kind of ideas in the past.
Remember when the stars of the air forces were the interceptors because some people were convinced that future wars will be nuke bombers against AA defences?
Remember when a lot of people announced the death of the MBT's after the 1973 Middle East wars, due to the huge success of ATGM's?
Remember when the trend was to convert everything into light fast-reaction units because they were the solution to the "new" threats? And that seemed to be a genius idea until Gulf War I, when Desert Shield had to be implemented until enough heavy armor reached the zone...
We are now living yet another "era" when -once again- the death of MBT's is declared, but time will tell if that actually happens any time in the near future...
So far, and since the First Great War they are still running and the spinal column of any serious army.



Well....

ATGM and ManPADS have never been more prolific or as accurate.

Light Fast Reaction vehicles definitely have their place. Unless you're in a pitched battle of armour in an open space, a light tank is every bit as effective as a MBT (although see my first point).

Previous eras, never saw as much serious scrutiny of defence spending and military doctrine as we do now. Tanks are quite expensive and relatively expensive in terms of pound for pound projection (see my first point).

I can't help thinking that an element of resistance to change is bourne of nostalgia and tradition rather than real practical and objective requirements.

I suppose that while Russia, China and NK continue to develop MBT, we see the need to counter that threat. It can almost certainly be done more cheaply and effectively now than ever before though.
Sleepwalker71
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Posted: Monday, October 19, 2020 - 08:08 PM UTC
"In their Centurions, the 8th Hussars have evolved a new type of tank warfare. They taught us that anywhere a tank can go, is tank country: even the tops of mountains."

General John O'Daniel, commanding the US 1st Corps, on Centurion tanks performance during the Korean War.
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