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AFV Painting & Weathering
Answers to questions about the right paint scheme or tips for the right effect.
Panzer color illustrations...
KMM
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Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 10:58 AM UTC
Does anyone know of a site that has color plates of panzers or other WWII AFV's in different cammo schemes? Kind of like the color plates you see in the vehicle modeling books? It would be nice to look at color schemes of different vehicles without having to spend $15 on a book for each tank I want to build! Maybe it would be a good idea for Armorama to post a gallery like this...
staff_Jim
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Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 11:04 AM UTC
The issue there is copyright. Or more precisely that the authors (who are generally pretty active on the Internet) would see their illustrations and raise the "legal action" flag, which is their right. I don't blame them really. As an artist it's a shame when your work is "borrowed". Even if this site were not somewhat commercial in nature, they would still most likely have issues with it.

Now of course if they gave permission for it to be reprinted that would be another story. Will have to give it some thought to see if there is some way to entice them to maybe put up some content like that in conjunction with free marketing for their books. I know the Squadron Signals books use to have the kind of camo scheme profile shots you are talking about. Is there another publisher putting out new books now that has this too?

Jim
KMM
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Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 11:11 AM UTC
I was thinking it might be a copyright issue. I was just hoping that someone might have put up a site with their own color illustrations - I have seen a few, but they don't have much yet. It can just be surprisingly difficult, even with the internet, to find good pictures of different kinds of color schemes. Guess I'll just have to break down and buy some of the books.

BTW: I've seen a number of different books that have color plates or illustrations at the hobby shop. I'm not sure about the publishers though.
Sabot
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Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 11:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text

BTW: I've seen a number of different books that have color plates or illustrations at the hobby shop. I'm not sure about the publishers though.

Sounds like either the Osprey Vanguard series or the Squadron/Signal "In Action" series. They have plenty of good illustrations, Squadron has more color pictures, Osprey gets more into the mechanics of the vehicles and even has a cutaway of the vehicle interior. There's a good WWII tanks in color book by Motorbooks many photos of reconditioned tanks and some original color photos. Everything is identified though.
HunterCottage
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Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 05:21 PM UTC
This is why I wish there would be an "online" library, where one could pay a fee and go to a secure area to look at, in this case, armor. I wonder if an idea that would work. I know there are copyright issues even here, but that could be worked around seeing it would be a library-type setting.

Just me dreaming again!!
Kencelot
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Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 07:00 PM UTC
KMM, the next biggest problem aside from the publishing issue, is PC colors, or even just showing color plates online, is that it's next to impossible; due to the fact that color renditions will vary hugely, in all and in part, from differing video cards to moniters to even OS's. No one color will look the same on two different PC's. Which is why there are so few sites, if any, that show color plates.

Your BEST bet would be (unfortunetly) to get yourself one of the books. I know parting with your cash is a bummer...

I did a simple search for panzer color plates and easily found this book which boasts:

Soft cover, 8.5"x11.5", 52 glossy pages, 12 color pages with 32 color camouflage schemes, an additional 48 camouflage schemes in black & white, plus a huge decal sheet that makes over 60 combinations It's published by Kagero (anyone here of them?? ; I wonder what scale the decal sheet is?)
And for only 20 bucks-plus shipping I'm sure, it's not a bad deal. BTW, if you copy down the "ISBN" you could call around to your local book stores to see if they have it...maybe save a couple of bucks.

Have a look here:

http://www.angelraybooks.com/books/kagero/0004ka.htm
dcampbell
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Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 07:40 PM UTC
"The issue there is copyright. Or more precisely that the authors (who are generally pretty active on the Internet) would see their illustrations and raise the "legal action" flag, which is their right. I don't blame them really. As an artist it's a shame when your work is "borrowed". Even if this site were not somewhat commercial in nature, they would still most likely have issues with it."

I can assume then that all the wartime photographs on this site are published with the consent of the copyright holder and the appropriate reproduction fees have been paid to same...?

Donald Campbell
pipesmoker
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Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 08:53 PM UTC
In reply to a couple of items brought up here.
For color plates and information on WW2 German afv's ...Squadron Signal's "Panzer Colors".
Three volumes, I know, but good color illustrations.
Kagero "Photosniper"books..handled by George Parada of the "Achtung Panzer" website. I believe these are written in Polish but with color illustrations and sometimes with decals or small frets of photoetch for the subject of the book
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzer.htm
As others have said, between copyrights and problems with color on various monitors, etc... publications are your best bet.
.
staff_Jim
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Posted: Sunday, March 03, 2002 - 09:28 PM UTC

Quoted Text


I can assume then that all the wartime photographs on this site are published with the consent of the copyright holder and the appropriate reproduction fees have been paid to same...?



Donald,
That would be a bad assumption. As I am sure you're aware images gathered from the Internet generally come from sources who are also reprinting images with no authorization from the image owner. By and large I think many of the images on this site are public domain. That said I am also sure there are some that are not. My policy on this is that if an image is being used improperly, then if notified of a copyright issue I will simply remove the image (or images) in question. That hasn't occured yet btw. When I gather reference photos I use government sites (like http://www.defenselink.mil/multimedia/) that have released photos to the public. Or vintage photos which were generally shot by combat photographers and again these photos (to my knowlegdge) are public domain.

I am curious though what AFV's experience has been on that subject. Not having seen an issue yet I am unaware if you are using reference/wartime photos though.
dcampbell
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2002 - 01:45 AM UTC
"That would be a bad assumption"

It's no skin off my nose what you do to be honest , that's a matter for your conscience. Since you ask, any images we use are published with full permission and any fees due are paid. In fact we refrained from using an image highly pertinent to a recent article and which is readily available online because the necessary permission was not made available in time. I just thought there was an element of double standards at play when you highlighted the copyright issues pertaining to artwork while your site is full of unacknowledged images scanned from various books. You might find this of interest as regards 'public domain':

http://www.whatiscopyright.org/



cheers

DC



staff_Jim
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2002 - 02:01 AM UTC
Donald,
I understand your concerns. However I have never scanned any images from books, nor added images I knew came from books. I rather feel the same way on the subject to be honest and if there are infractions on the site then I will correct them if brought to my attention.

As I said most of the images on this site came from elsewhere on the Internet, and obviously there is no easy way to determine where the copyright ownership lies. I could just remove all images in the reference section I guess. But somehow I doubt that would go over well either.

But I am also curious about combat photos taken by US Signal corps for instance. Certainly these pics have been used in copyrighted material. I am no lawyer but I would think that this does not then make them protected photos under copyright law.

It's all rather scary stuff to me. I am just trying to give the site users some reference material to work from.

Cheers,
Jim
GeneralFailure
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2002 - 04:02 AM UTC
Many other site administrators would have removed expressions as the above from their forum smoothly and quickly.
I'm rather dissapointed and surprised about the above discussion.
Having "discovered" this site only a few weeks ago, I think I can speak without prejudice.

Correct internet etiquette requires the site administration to take copyright issues seriously. Sites that serve as a community platform - a very international one in this case - should be extra considerate to this issue.

On Armorama, I discovered a group of dedicated modelers who are willing to share their experience with others, without distinction of age, nationality, color, religion or shoe size.
A community of modelers who (well, I hope so ) all have respectful jobs, lead a respectful life and who are mainly concerned - on these pages - with some good natured fun without hurting other's feelings - or infringe the law in any way.

Regarding the copyright issues, I can only witness how sensitive the site administration has been on the subject of publishing material of unclear origin in our discussions when I published material here. They certainly do not take opyright issues lightly.

I visited many other modeling sites during the last few months; I need not name them here. Most of those show the same kind of picture material, and nothing suggests to me that they would be any more considerate to the copyright issue than Armorama.

I therefore have the feeling the content of the recent postings in this tread does not primarily concern copyright. They seem to concern personal agendas. I would like to hope this forum can remain free of postings that are mainly intended of settling personal grudges and hidden agendas. They are harmful to the most attractive aspect of Armorama : an unbiased community of people all over the world who share the same passion.

As for the Armorama administrators, I can only hope :
- that they manage to keep their enthousiasm - in spite of postings like these
- that they continue to invest so much of their personal time to maintain the quality of this site on this almost unequalled level
- that armorama may become and remain a fun online community to young and old for a long time to come
- that this site can become a source of friendly information and advice from one modeler to another

As a father of a young child, I hope he can be interested in the web, for it is a great gift to our world. Internet can bring out the worst and the best of mankind. Once my son starts reading and playing around on the internet, I hope he spends his time on sites like these. Armorama brings good, clean fun to many people without the intention of infringing the law and with only one goal : be a fun community to military scale modelers. When he starts modeling, I will trust him to visit this site without my supervision, because I discovered the friendly nature of its users and administators.

If I misread the meaning of the above postings, I apologize to all who may be offended by this reply.

And no, I do not mind if the administrators remove this posting if they think it can harm the good nature of this site.




Jan Van der Cruysse
Communications Manager
Master at Law, Master at Communications Sciences, Master Marketing Management
Antwerp, Belgium, Europe


dcampbell
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2002 - 05:04 AM UTC
Your apology is accepted.

Donald Campbell
HunterCottage
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2002 - 05:35 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Your apology is accepted.

Donald Campbell


But does this then mean, you didn't have any qualms with the content on the site? How are your observations meant to be taken then?

Just curious...
KMM
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2002 - 07:47 AM UTC
Boy, didn't mean to open a can of worms with this post. I was just looking for an interesting camo scheme for my PzIV.

BTW, Kencelot, that is a nice book you pointed out, I've seen it before. I absolutely love books in general and would buy one for every major (or minor) tank if I could afford it. Unfortunately, buying one book for every vehicle I build just isn't possible. I may have to pick up one like you pointed out, or another that features different camo schemes from a number of different vehicles.
staff_Jim
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Posted: Monday, March 04, 2002 - 08:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text


If I misread the meaning of the above postings, I apologize to all who may be offended by this reply.



Brian - I think Donald is saying that Jan misinterpreted his posts. And by his short response I take that to mean he is done talking about the issue, as am I.

Jan - Thanks for your support of the site. You can count on me continuing to try to make the site better and keeping it a place you'd want your kids to utilize. I was great talking to Brian's son earlier today in the chatroom, even if I did mistake him for his dad! :-)

Jim
DerFeind
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Posted: Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 05:11 AM UTC
Does anyone know of a site that has color plates of panzers or other WWII AFV's in different cammo schemes? Kind of like the color plates you see in the vehicle modeling books?

Umm....was this not the original question? Talk about taking the ball and running with it!!! lol
Kmm, there are numerous sites showing camo' schemes of Panzers on the net. Additionaly, there is info readily available, FREE, on the net describing colors and years used. I think the first rule to making a good model is research. I've made 6 differant models and made them as "accurite" as possible, and got all the info free from the net. That being said, figure out if it's dunkelgelb or gelbbraun you need and apply it. Other then a basic set of guidlines, the wiley panzer commander had free reign to apply the colors, in the field, and I got the pics to prove it. So unless your making a factory new Pzkpfw, get a guidline and add your touch! Just dont add a great big schwarzgrau bulls-eye on the side!!



[email protected]
Kencelot
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Posted: Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 07:03 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Just dont add a great big schwarzgrau bulls-eye on the side!!






Sounds like my favorite allied painting for German armor...lol
DerFeind
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Posted: Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 10:13 AM UTC
Doooohhhh!!!!!!!! I messed up and let my secret out!
screamingeagle
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Posted: Monday, March 25, 2002 - 01:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

KMM, Your BEST bet would be (unfortunetly) to get yourself one of the books. I know parting with your cash is a bummer...




KMM , Ken is absolutely right. I have to agree with him.
I don't want to come off as being sarcastic, but if you are
going to take your modeling seriously and want answers that
you don't want to wait around for - Your going to have to invest
in some good military reference & historical books.
MY BOOKS ARE ANOTHER HOBBY IN ITSELF, and the books I buy
surpass my models & modeling supplies by double the cost
and still climbing. I love book's on military history & reference.
I can't picture myself without them - they are of great value to me !
And as they say - " the more you read, the more you know "
There's nothing like having a book, and most of
the time finding answers to your own questions or curiosity
right in front of you.
- ralph
Sabot
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Posted: Monday, March 25, 2002 - 05:39 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Your going to have to invest in some good military reference & historical books. MY BOOKS ARE ANOTHER HOBBY IN ITSELF...



I have to agree here. My purchase of books is probably one of the more expensive portions of a project. Of course, one of my other hobbies is military history and most of my reference books fall right into this category.